Odometer Discrepancy on Blue Bird TC 2000: Options After ECM Reveals 300K Miles

[JourneyBus]

Hello,

I am new member and happy to join the community.

I recently purchased a 28' 2003 Blue Bird TC 2000 (FE) with a CUMMINS 5.9 24 valve diesel engine. This bus was a handicap/wheelchair bus equipped with air brakes and air ride suspension. The frame has minimal surface rust and the body is in good shape, aside from some minor scratches and dents. I got it directly from a school district (public auction) and was confident I paid a fair price... I was told it had about 80,000 miles on it (odometer confirms) and that it was used occasionally on routes for special needs and handicapped children. Before I get into the issue, I will say, I drove it just under 2000 miles home with zero issues.

The issue I am having, is upon further inspection, scanning the vehicles ECM I found out the milelage is significantly higher than I was lead to believe (almost 300,000 miles). Before anyone says I should not have gone by the odometer, I am aware now, but even the seller put the lower mileage on the title and did not fill out the proper actual mile stipulation within the title transfer section. I was able to get about half of the maintenance logs (still waiting for the other half). The ECM is original and contains the associated VIN data. After research, I assume the odometer was changed which is common and the new odometer sticker was not filled out with the old mileage information.

My ultimate question is do I have any options to explore? I definitely over paid for this vehicle with its actual milelage. I cannot help but feel a little bit bummed as I am reluctant to use this as a skoolie conversion platform, given the circumstances. I guess for now this is a big lesson learned and I do not think all is lost because it does run and drive very well.

 

[Mr. Beefy]

Man, that really blows. It's my understanding you're pretty much on your own with these auction sales (which is how we got our bus as well), but a 300K odometer discrepancy might be something outside of the rights you signed away agreeing to their terms. If you have the will and the means, I'd think a consulation with a lawyer would be warranted. If it were me, I'd do that before I did anything else.

Best of luck. I hope you find a satisfactory resolution to this issue.

 

[ewo1]

Depending on how long ago you bought it, you might have a valid claim for seller misrepresentation and have the deal reversed.
Even if it is an AS-Is sale, misrepresentation trumps "as-is."
As-is in your case, was for a bus with 80k miles, not 300k.

This is a significant error!

Otherwise, if the engine is in good shape, push forward with your build.

 

[desrtdog]

When you say "the ECM is original and contains the associated VIN data", what exactly do you mean? Are you getting this from the ECM itself (i.e., via scan), or from a tag on the ECM that has all that data stamped on it? Also, when you scanned the ECM, was it using INSITE software, or a scan tool?

The reason I ask is that there are parameters in the ECM program for mileage and time offsets that can be manipulated through INSITE. I replaced my ECM last year with a refurbished one...I know for a fact that the one I took out was the original because it was painted "Cummins red" and had a Dataplate with the production date, ESN and ECM code stamped on it. Unfortunately, it was toasted, so could not recover the detailed programming for the "new" one, and thus spent some $$$ to get that all sorted - but that's another story. When I use my scan tool to look at the data now, I get some weird numbers that do not match with what I know my bus to have for both run hours and mileage ... Also, the run hours on the instrument cluster are now way off what they were previously - which were also previously verified from a scan with INSITE just before the ECM crapped out...

Not trying to say that your bus doesn't have 300K miles, but may be worth paying a mechanic to scan with INSITE, if for no other reason than to get a hardcopy of the current programming in case you need it in the future. ...

 

[JourneyBus]

What I mean is that I used a scan tool to pull the data the ECM shows the vin that matches my vehicle. I am 99% sure the ECM is original and not a donor ECM because of this. I am getting a professional mechanics opinion on the data from the ECM currently. Just waiting to hear back from them after they run their own tests and do a scan of the ECM.

 

[desrtdog]

Gotcha...make sure they are scanning with the Cummins INSITE tool...also, ask if they can provide you with a printout of your ECM programming.

 

[JourneyBus]

Great idea I will ask them… once I get the mechanic info I will formulate my next moves. Unfortunately I already started the demo process so returning it is not an option but I still think the discrepancy warrants an action

 

[JourneyBus]

Depending on how long ago you bought it, you might have a valid claim for seller misrepresentation and have the deal reversed.
Even if it is an AS-Is sale, misrepresentation trumps "as-is."
As-is in your case, was for a bus with 80k miles, not 300k.

This is a significant error!

Otherwise, if the engine is in good shape, push forward with your build.

I am just curious I was looking at your build story and a question came up up for me. If I do decide to keep this one and push through the build, should I be worried about a 300k mile chassis/body? Best case scenario, lets just say I eventually do an engine rebuild (or swap). I know these buses are robust and built tough. Have you had any significant problems with your rig? How many milesnhave you accumulated on your journey?

 

[ewo1]

I bought my bus sight unseen at auction, it was sold and the buyer backed out and the bus re-listed for sale.
No one bid on it and I took it for !,500 bucks. Drove it from Louisville, Kentucky to Miami Florida, no issues!

Once I started getting into it I found rust, lots of rust but a strong running engine (220k+ miles) with a MD3060 tranny and rear air suspension.

So I got to cutting and grinding...this is the journey!

My take on this is, once you make a decision, turn it into a plan and move forward!

Lot's of folks would have resold the bus and looked for another... I did very well keeping this one!
I have done LOT's of repairs on it and rust remediation too!

 

[JourneyBus]

I bought my bus sight unseen at auction, it was sold and the buyer backed out and the bus re-listed for sale.
No one bid on it and I took it for !,500 bucks. Drove it from Louisville, Kentucky to Miami Florida, no issues!

Once I started getting into it I found rust, lots of rust but a strong running engine (220k+ miles) with a MD3060 tranny and rear air suspension.

So I got to cutting and grinding...this is the journey!

My take on this is, once you make a decision, turn it into a plan and move forward!

Lot's of folks would have resold the bus and looked for another... I did very well keeping this one!
I have done LOT's of repairs on it and rust remediation too!

I like this perspective, thank you for the insight! Have you put a lot of miles on the bus since you finished the build? No issues so far?

 

[ewo1]

I like this perspective, thank you for the insight! Have you put a lot of miles on the bus since you finished the build? No issues so far?

My build is not even close to being done...
I used it as a moving truck from Miami, Fl. to Central Texas... hopefully this summer I begin working on it again.

 

[JourneyBus]

My build is not even close to being done...
I used it as a moving truck from Miami, Fl. to Central Texas... hopefully this summer I begin working on it again.

Ahhh I see. Well good luck with the project!

 

[ewo1]

Ahhh I see. Well good luck with the project!

Thanks, I got 2 busses I'm working on...not enough time in a day....

 

[BamaBus]

My ultimate question is do I have any options to explore?

The very first bus I bought was a similar story. I contacted the school system and Govdeals with no success and then contacted the state where it was purchased. The state had no problems in taking a statement so they could investigate but I had to return to the scene of the crime, with the bus. No way! An attorney was not an option since the cost would have been more than the purchase price. On subsequent purchases, no mileage had equal to the ecm data.

But on the flip side, I have purchased 2 buses that had higher mileage not realizing they had replacement engines and transmissions with significantly lower mileage. It was only doing an inspection and inventory of the major components when I found the data tags didn't jive when the ecm and build sheets from the manufacturers. I was able to contact the warranty department of the remanufacturers to find out the replacement sell date and in one case, mileage. The chassis of those buses had been maintained and has not been an issue to date.

 

[JourneyBus]

The very first bus I bought was a similar story. I contacted the school system and Govdeals with no success and then contacted the state where it was purchased. The state had no problems in taking a statement so they could investigate but I had to return to the scene of the crime, with the bus. No way! An attorney was not an option since the cost would have been more than the purchase price. On subsequent purchases, no mileage had equal to the ecm data.

But on the flip side, I have purchased 2 buses that had higher mileage not realizing they had replacement engines and transmissions with significantly lower mileage. It was only doing an inspection and inventory of the major components when I found the data tags didn't jive when the ecm and build sheets from the manufacturers. I was able to contact the warranty department of the remanufacturers to find out the replacement sell date and in one case, mileage. The chassis of those buses had been maintained and has not been an issue to date.

I guess there is some good news in the end of your story. The only replacement confirmed on this bus is the Allison transmission, but the engine is the original. Returning the bus is simply not an option at this point. This week I will get some more clarity on the state of the engine as well as a reply from the school district. I honestly would not have cared about a 10k or 20k difference but I was shocked when it was so significant.

 

[BamaBus]

Significant indeed not to mention the idle time associated with the use it had! You asked about the chassis/body but also said it was good, so I assume it's ok. Where did it come from and does it have factory a/c? In your spare time, look for a good parts bus.

 

[JourneyBus]

Significant indeed not to mention the idle time associated with the use it had! You asked about the chassis/body but also said it was good, so I assume it's ok. Where did it come from and does it have factory a/c? In your spare time, look for a good parts bus.

This bus came from Georgia and has 2 factor A/C units as well as 2 heaters. I am going to keep my eye out for a spare bus. If the mechanic says the engine is in good shape I'll use the engine for now and start a fund for a future swap or rebuild. Chasis/body is in very good shape with almost no rust.

 

[fo4imtippin]

I wouldn't worry about the miles if its not smoking. You can have a mechanic compression test the 6 cylinders and send in an oil sample analysis as well. Even at the low miles you thought you paid for, crap happens. The fact that this made it to 300k means it was "well maintained". They call them million mile motors and usually they are, but things like the transmission and electronic parts around them crap out first where its not worth going further. Other things like suspension bushings, steering gears, intercoolers, and stuff add to the cost to mantain. If all that is in order, i would proceed as planned. Whether you bought an old bus with 55k or an old bus with 300k, you add 10k-70k to convert it. Keep 10-15k on hand if you like your rig to replace the engine or transmission someday. You usually get a bit of warning with a diesel and lucky for you, the trans has already been replaced.

I ended up getting a deal on my bus because the first guy bought it for the miles listed on the Odometer and backed out after purchase and he realized that it had 100k more.

 

[JourneyBus]

I wouldn't worry about the miles if its not smoking. You can have a mechanic compression test the 6 cylinders and send in an oil sample analysis as well. Even at the low miles you thought you paid for, crap happens. The fact that this made it to 300k means it was "well maintained". They call them million mile motors and usually they are, but things like the transmission and electronic parts around them crap out first where its not worth going further. Other things like suspension bushings, steering gears, intercoolers, and stuff add to the cost to mantain. If all that is in order, i would proceed as planned. Whether you bought an old bus with 55k or an old bus with 300k, you add 10k-70k to convert it. Keep 10-15k on hand if you like your rig to replace the engine or transmission someday. You usually get a bit of warning with a diesel and lucky for you, the trans has already been replaced.

I ended up getting a deal on my bus because the first guy bought it for the miles listed on the Odometer and backed out after purchase and he realized that it had 100k more.

I guess a good idea would to start a master list of engine items and chasis items that may need replacements and/or upgrades in the near future. My whole idea from the start was to try and find a lower mileage bus to avoid all of this upfront but I guess if the engine is well maintained, they are built to last. Thats really what matters most.

A big lesson I've learned so far with this thread is that age is age. Even with an old bus with low miles, you have bushings, hoses, wires, etc that deteriorate regardless. There are things to worry about, not just the engine and drivetrain.

One thing I am really excited with this bus is the air ride suspension. It makes a huge difference with rattling and bumps on the road.

 

[SkyMaster]

Maybe I missed, have you posted how may hours are on it?

A few pics of the frame and such might help too. In Georgia I doubt it saw very much if any snow.