Open Ground at outlets after installing Renogy 3000W Inverter/Charger

If you ground 120 volt sysrem to the chasis and wire shorts out, you have now energized the whole bus which is sitting on rubber wheels totally ungrounded. Over the years ive seen three times . One coach you grab door handle you would feel a tingle standing on grass. For saftey, which is what the ground system is should go off the bus back to feed. Get any code book in the country, it will tell you how to hook up a sub panel ,which a camp ground feed the bus becomes the sub panel.
 
Bonding vs Grounding

If you ground 120 volt sysrem to the chasis and wire shorts out, you have now energized the whole bus which is sitting on rubber wheels totally ungrounded. Over the years ive seen three times . One coach you grab door handle you would feel a tingle standing on grass. For saftey, which is what the ground system is should go off the bus back to feed. Get any code book in the country, it will tell you how to hook up a sub panel ,which a camp ground feed the bus becomes the sub panel.
You wrote:
"If you ground the bus....it's totally ungrounded."
🤷Huh?

The first sentence above describes Bonding an ungrounded panel lug to an ungrounded bus chassis. There is no Ground in this scenario.

Article 100 of the NEC defines Ground as “the Earth.” Section 250.4(A)(1) states that grounded electrical systems “shall be connected to Earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilizes the voltage to earth during normal operation."

The above post goes on to state that IF a bus were plugged into a 120v source that the bus could become electrified.
Ha. Not possible as the bus's current carrying potential is absolute zero, when Grounded.

39257-albums2067-picture26869.jpg

The 120V pedestal ought to have a Ground prong which bonds the bus to the pedistal's Grounding Electrode System.

When we bond a transformer only to ungrounded steel, it is Bonded, yet never Grounded.

The words Grounded & Bonded are NOT interchangeable nor synonymous. Physics is not philosophy.
 
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Grounded Chassis v Floating Chassis Ground

If you ground 120 volt sysrem to the chasis and wire shorts out, you have now energized the whole bus which is sitting on rubber wheels totally ungrounded. Over the years ive seen three times . One coach you grab door handle you would feel a tingle standing on grass. For saftey, which is what the ground system is should go off the bus back to feed. Get any code book in the country, it will tell you how to hook up a sub panel ,which a camp ground feed the bus becomes the sub panel.

Demac clears up one part to this discussion (thanks Demac!). I'll mention another. There's a lot of detail so brothers and sisters please check my work!

For the moment let's take the inverter/charger or any transfer switches from battery power out of the equation and focus just on grounding and shore power. Assume three wires are coming into the bus from shore power: black, or load (or hot); white, or neutral (or common); and green or ground.

Grounded Chassis:
If the bus 120VAC subpanel is grounded to the bus chassis via a conductor connecting the ground bus bar in the subpanel to the metal chassis, and if that ground bus bar is NOT bonded to the white, or neutral (or common) bus bar in accordance with electrical code, you should see the following:

1. A test tool like a plug-in receptacle tester on any properly wired branch circuit will show proper ground. In this case, the ground is somewhere back to the shore power or beyond, to the main panel.
2. Any dead short of that branch circuit to metal within the bus that is connected to the chassis will trip the branch circuit breaker at the bus subpanel, as you want it to.
3. Any voltage bleed-over due to a partial short that is insufficient to trip the circuit breaker in the bus subpanel may give you a tingle to a shock if you touch it while in contact with the bus chassis when you are inside the bus.
4. Any hot wire that you come in contact with, either because it is just dangling there and you grab it, or because you come in contact with something conductive that it is touching (something not connected to the bus chassis so it hasn't already tripped a breaker) will give you a jolt, or kill you, if you are in contact with the bus chassis inside the bus.

In other words it is just as safe or unsafe as your residential wiring.

Similarly,
  • If condition #3 exists and you are outside the bus, you may also get a tingle to a shock because your shore power is not just bonded between neutral and ground at your pedestal or shore power panel; it is also grounded to earth, literally, and your body completes the circuit. It is just less likely to come through the bus chassis.
  • If condition #4 exists and you are outside the bus, you may also get a jolt or get killed for the same reason mentioned above.

Floating Chassis Ground
If you choose NOT to ground electrical devices and the ground bar of the subpanel in the bus to the bus chassis you will reduce the chances that standing on the ground and making contact with a conductive wire or surface ('hot skin') due to a short will give you a tingle, shock or get you killed. This is because there are fewer (or no) conductive paths to the chassis, so less chance you complete a circuit through your body.

As a side note you are also less exposed to bootleg ground reverse polarity shock, but this condition is wicked easy to check for before you plug in to that pedestal and it shouldn't factor in to this design discussion--you should always test shore power before plugging in.

Counterpoint to Floating Chassis Ground:
Grounding everything to chassis reduces the chances that condition #3 will occur in the first place because there are more ground paths, increasing the likelihood the breaker will trip, reducing the risk of shock while in the bus.

Similarly, there are fewer ways condition #4 can exist. Think of a shorted motor, or a worn wire inside a light fixture: if those motors and light fixtures are grounded to chassis that breaker is more likely to pop.

My takeaway: Grounding everything to the chassis less risky than not.

Beeb2, still eager to hear the results of your ground test while that inverter/charger is on shore power.
 
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Two Sources at Once

Yes.
Everything Rucker wrote⤴.

I'll add more. Lets combine Rucker's scenarios. Two or more souces of energy production. Which is the actual case with most skoolies.

The various hot conditions described by Rucker could occur simultaneously, in Ungrounded installations. This gives rise to the possibility of being struck by two ungrounded conductors. Two hots, which is much worse than one hot and a Ground or one hot and a grounded conductor (Neutral).

A mammal (inside or outside) of the floating chassis could be electrocuted by two or more circuits, fed from two different sources and still not trip a breaker. This is an absolute death scenario. Not even an elephant will survive a hit like this. (Thomas Edison killed Topsy, the elephant, to prove his point.)

Grounding the chassis, ie Bonding to the Earth via a Grounding Electrode, ensures that the chassis will not be unknowingly & undetectably electrified, along with the flesh. In this scenario, all of which remains undetectable until the second power source is introduced.

This seems like a terrific place to add a link for those who seek to read the truth over listening to our hearsay:
www.skoolie.net/Major-Safety-Concerns-in-97-Percent-of-Rooftop-PV-Systems

Pros get the Grounding part wrong, too.
Good luck🤞.
 
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Ha. Not possible as the bus's current carrying potential is absolute zero, when Grounded.


Don't you mean it's ability to be charged to a voltage potential above ground in usual situations is zero?


If you have 1 milliohm of ground resistance, and a 10,000 amp lighting bolt hits -- until it burns open you are at least briefly 10 volts above ground.
 
The chassis and body of a bus would be no different than the housing of an electric motor or frame of an appliance which need to be grounded. Special cases like a pool pump usually require an additional grounding rod to ensure there is a good ground.

Ted
 
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Ok, not to derail things back to the original conversation, but I have results!

While running on battery power only, with no shore power:
No continuity between 120V Neutral and 120V Ground bus bars

While running on shore power:
No continuity between 120V Neutral and 120V Ground bus bars
 
Renogy Inverter/charger and automatic bonding

Ok, not to derail things back to the original conversation, but I have results!

While running on battery power only, with no shore power:
No continuity between 120V Neutral and 120V Ground bus bars

While running on shore power:
No continuity between 120V Neutral and 120V Ground bus bars

So....either the Renogy Inverter/Charger doesn't toggle bonding, or it does and the device is defective. Might be worth an email to their support with your specific model just to see what they say.

If it is supposed to toggle bonding, great! Swap out the unit because it's defective.

If it doesn't, either because it doesn't by design, or it should but 'the feature is not yet enabled', I think the fix would be to use a 30A 120VAC latching relay on to bond the inverter neutral and ground when on battery power.
 
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I feel the same way. Except I find it odd that on shore power there is no bond either. I assumed on shore power this became more of a pass-through style device and as such would utilize the main panel's gnd-neutral bond. So seeing no continuity on shore power is wrong as well, unless the main panel doesn't have a gnd-neutral bond, or one of the circuits is incomplete.
 
I feel the same way. Except I find it odd that on shore power there is no bond either. I assumed on shore power this became more of a pass-through style device and as such would utilize the main panel's gnd-neutral bond. So seeing no continuity on shore power is wrong as well, unless the main panel doesn't have a gnd-neutral bond, or one of the circuits is incomplete.

Great observation!

Beeb, you might want to use your plug tester upstream, on the shore power, to see if you have proper ground anywhere.

Curiouser and curiouser.
 
Can you give a bit of description about how your shore power comes into the bus? What devices, how wired?

Based on what you've described it sounds like either your neutral or your ground wire has an open circuit somewhere within the bus 120 VAC wiring, before it gets to the inverter charger. Is that possible?
 
Photo = 1000 Words

@With no photos, the guessing game is getting old.

We are limited to the⚡ information which YOU select as pertinent. Please, attach some photos of your panel and you grounding system so WE can suggest the corrections. It's quite possible that you have not identified the causes or specific information to relay to us and in turn omitted data valid to the solution.

We don't know what we don't know. 🤷

"Take my word for it, bro."
Nah
📸 Pictures man. Why make it difficult for the folks trying to help you?

Something does not check out on your tester. Ergo, incorrectly installed. It's likely something that you think looks great👍 but it's not😖, so your eyes don't notice.
 
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Shore power is coming from a standard house 15amp outlet (I don't have a 30amp connection at home). I have a 15amp to 30amp adapter.

The cord connects to the bus at this exact Furrion 30amp inlet.

From there, it connects to this Blue Seas breaker. And from there, it connects to my inverter charger inlet.

Then, from the inverter-charger outlet, it runs directly to this distribution panel.

I can go back through and check that all the connections are good. But as far as I can tell, everything is set up correctly.
 
I will take some pictures/video when I get a chance.

Appreciated. I'm heading out for a brief trip but will check in when I get back.

In the meantime I took a peek at the Altera panel. As usual, the manufacturer either doesn't know about proper bonding or stays silent on proper installation so they avoid liability somehow.

There's nothing in the specs or manual that help clarify whether their neutral and ground bus bars are separate. From the diagram it appears there is a 'negative terminal jumper' but again it's completely unclear how the ground and neutral on the AC and the DC side are connected. Maddening.

Back to basics: for continuity on both the neutral and ground wires on your power cord to shore power. If there's a break in that power cord it would explain the open ground, and it might be as simple as that.

Otherwise it has to be an open circuit on either the neutral or the ground wire somewhere in the panel.

From the installation manual the following should be true (check and test these circuits with no power applied):
1. Shore power neutral goes to the AC neutral terminal bar (which is not grounded).
2. Shore power ground goes to the AC ground terminal bar (which is not bonded to neutral-no continuity between the AC neutral and AC ground bars at the panel)
3. AC ground has continuity to the DC negative bar (adjacent and perpendicular to the AC neutral and ground bars)
4. AC neutral is open circuit to the DC negative bar (adjacent)
5. AC ground terminal bar has an 8AWG wire connected to chassis (ground)
 
Renogy tech support said that the inverter/charger is operating as expected and does not have a ground/neutral automatic bond switch as it states in the manual. They claim that the manual is outdated (ie. it's an old feature they have since removed).

They have offered to give me a refund if I return it. I haven't decided yet because I can't afford any of the more quality brands.
 

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