Per-appliance LPG shut-off valves (NFPA1192, & ABYC A-1)

[TheHubbardBus]

I'm getting real close to starting to implement our propane system. As such, I'm revisiting all the applicable/useful codes. ABYC (boats) is effectively a bit more stringent in some regards, so I'm considering them both together (as I have done with our electric system as well).

Both of these standards apparently require an interior shut-off valve PER APPLIANCE. My question is... why? I get it if the appliances are some distance away from each other, but say you have a range and a heater right next to each other (each well within the acceptable distance from shut-off valve to appliance listed in one or both standards). Wouldn't it make more sense to have a single point (one valve) where gas could potentially leak from, than multiples? Both standards are explicit in this 'one shutoff valve per appliance' mandate, so I figure I'm overlooking the logic in it. I just can't figure out why.

Aside from convenience (being able to shut-off one problematic appliance while keeping the others in play), is there another reason? Could it be because the volume of gas remaining in one appliance after shutting off the valve could feed back into the problematic appliance?

The way I see it, if you were to use 1 valve for an adjacent pair of appliances versus 2, the number of connections would be the same, but you'd consolidate those connections to just one point (which could be exactly where your propane leak sensor is mounted).

FWIW, I'm going to follow code to the letter. But... I really would like to understand the reasoning here. My tentative plan is to co-locate each of these two shut-off valves at a point in-between the two.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I'm guessing that the part I just bolded above is why. If you need to shut down a gas appliance for whatever reason, you probably want to cut off the gas supply RFN, and not after waiting for all the gas in the adjacent appliances to be burned off.

 

[Ozbozz57]

I would say the one-valve-per-appliance rule is so a person is able to isolate a problem appliance but still be able to use the others.

 

[Ozbozz57]

I ran my gas pipe in black iron under the floor, and stubbed up through into the interior to each location of use. The water heater and cooktop are on the same branch pipe, but have separate valves. The furnace is on another branch on the other side of the bus. It has its own shutoff valve, but the valve is under the floor because the pipe stubs up into a cabinet where the furnace is mounted. I put the valve where I could get to it easily. Inside the cabinet wouldn't have provided quick access. I DID place a propane drain pipe from the bottom of that cabinet straight down through the floor to open air in case a gas leak developed from the furnace. I didn't want gas to accumulate in a cavity.

 

[Rucker]

It never would have occurred to me NOT to have a shutoff for each device. It's an issue of practicality--what if you want to remove one of the two devices?

 

[TheHubbardBus]

Yeah, you've got a point there, Rucker. Muchas gracias. I guess I was so focused on the safety aspects that I completely overlooked practical considerations

Ozzbozz, thanks so much. I appreciate the feedback. I hope to do essentially the same, only I'm going with copper (k) under the bus (and copper (L) inside). I've been designing the cabinetry housing all LPG stuff except the water heater (cabinetry which we're going to start building this weekend.... yay!), so I've now been forced to transition from vague ideas to painstaking detail .

What are y'all doing from the shutoff valve to the appliance? Flexible hose?

 

[Kentucky Dreaming]

I hope to do essentially the same, only I'm going with copper (k) under the bus (and copper (L) inside). I've been designing the cabinetry housing all LPG stuff except the water heater (cabinetry which we're going to start building this weekend.... yay!), so I've now been forced to transition from vague ideas to painstaking detail.

I would recommend against copper outside, although I don't know what (k) or (l) mean. My POS truck camper is plumbed 100% with soft copper propane lines. I once drilled from the inside to run a wire to hook up a suitcase solar panel to charge the battery. I barely nicked the copper line coming out of the propane tank compartment.

Thankfully, the smell & propane detector alerted me to the problem pretty fast.

I say go black iron everywhere as close as possible to each appliance. Keep flexible lines as short as possible.

But I ain't no injuneer, just a simple uneducated hillbilly.

 

[TheHubbardBus]

Well, your uneducated, backwoods, hill-folk suggestion is one of the code-compliant options. You sure your parents weren't injuneers? I'm pretty sure it's inherited

K has thicker walls than L. I figured that difference would be enough to make it a bit more suitable for under-the-bus.

Truth be told I just hate the weight of black pipe. And the cutting. And the threading. But you're probably right... (sigh)

 

[nikitis]

Even I will be installing a propane detector. I probably would of installed separate valves on every appliance. (I'm about to that point in my build) I didn't even think about the money savings this time either for some reason. A valve is like $3-4? I'm more afraid of gas than electricity I suppose lol. I don't play around with Gas.

I also always install pressure gauges on every line, because a long time ago this one time, I couldn't get my gas stove in my house to light one time after I installed it, and didn't know why. After reading the instructions, the gas range apparently had a safety membrane valve that stops the gas over 2 lbs of pressure, and I was getting 7 lbs in the line, but I would of never known that without the gauge, so I installed one and found it was at 7 lbs, and I had no way to adjust it properly so I bought a 2lb regulator and put that in-line before the gas range, and it's worked for 11 years now.

You may need to buy regulators for some of your appliances so ensure you read up on what PSI needs to go through them and buy a regulator for a few bucks and put them in line as well. Typically with the 20lb canisters though you can control them fairly easily up to a certain PSI with the default nozzle, so you may be able to release enough to balance out to all of your appliances if they use roughly the same PSI.

 

[Kentucky Dreaming]

Well, your uneducated, backwoods, hill-folk suggestion is one of the code-compliant options. You sure your parents weren't injuneers? I'm pretty sure it's inherited

K has thicker walls than L. I figured that difference would be enough to make it a bit more suitable for under-the-bus.

Truth be told I just hate the weight of black pipe. And the cutting. And the threading. But you're probably right... (sigh)

Sorry. My mom dropped out of school to give birth to me 3 weeks before her 17th birthday. Dad was a toolmaker and I followed in his feetsteps. Now here I am at age 62...

When it comes to propane, I don't care about the weight of a few feet of pipe. I just don't like the idea of soft copper carrying flammable gas in a box I'm sleeping in.

I'm with you guys, but I had a bad fall just before I was gonna buy PorchDog's bus that made me realize I'm too old for this conversion. I should leave, but I still enjoy the group and think I still have a tiny bit of wisdom to share.

 

[TheHubbardBus]

I really hope you don't leave, Kentucky. 99% of the people doing this never make it to the end anyway. That makes you different from them by only... like... 1%.

I'm gonna take your advice. If I throw out my back carrying the stuff you're totally to blame. Then we can be part of that 99% together.

How's that for backwoods math?

 

[Kentucky Dreaming]

Another thing about Propane/Co2 detectors::: Dog farts will set them off. My POS truck camper has one at the appropriate location. right at floor level. Unfortunately it is right where my late Nolie slept. She was prone to gas in her old age. We were awakened many times by the alarm.

 

[TheHubbardBus]

Another thing about Propane/Co2 detectors::: Dog farts will set them off. My POS truck camper has one at the appropriate location. right at floor level. Unfortunately it is right where my late Nolie slept. She was prone to gas in her old age. We were awakened many times by the alarm.

Didn't need to hear that. Our dog's greatest talent is farting. That and anal gland issues.

Maybe a little propane leak wouldn't be so bad, after-all.

 

[Kentucky Dreaming]

I really hope you don't leave, Kentucky. 99% of the people doing this never make it to the end anyway. That makes you different from them by only... like... 1%.

How's that for backwoods math?

Jody, I ain't even made it to the beginning. I want to get my body back in shape, but I don't see it happening after so many years of deskwork.

I ain't gone yet. I think I have a bit of advice left to give and I'm still learning from most of you.

 

[ewo1]

You may need to buy regulators for some of your appliances so ensure you read up on what PSI needs to go through them and buy a regulator for a few bucks and put them in line as well. Typically with the 20lb canisters though you can control them fairly easily up to a certain PSI with the default nozzle, so you may be able to release enough to balance out to all of your appliances if they use roughly the same PSI.

Since your on the discussion topic of regulators, I wanted to compare notes between what you all are talking about and what the NFPA calls for.

Seems like you all are on the right track, right direction with the discussion!​

I don't have a current copy of the NFPA but I did download a 2005 version, and here what it talks about,
just a snippet...

2.15 Propane Regulators.
5.2.15.1 First stage regulators shall have an outlet gauge pressure setting up to 10.0 psi (69 kPa) in accordance with UL 144.

5.2.15.2 A two stage regulator system or an integral two stage regulator shall be listed to the requirements of UL 144.

5.2.15.3 The regulator(s) shall have a capacity that is not less than the total input of all propane appliances installed in the recreational vehicle.

5.2.15.4 The regulator(s) shall be installed with the pressure relief valve vent opening pointing downward within 45 degrees of vertical to vertical to allow for drainage of any moisture collected on the diaphragm of the regulator.

5.2.15.5 A regulator(s) installed below floor level shall be installed in a compartment that provides protection against the weather and wheel spray.

5.2.15.6 The compartment shall be of sufficient size to permit tool operation for connection to and replacement of the regulator(s), shall be vapor resistant to the interior of the vehicle, shall have a 1 in. 2 (6.5 cm 2 ) minimum and 2 in. 2 (12.9 cm 2 ) maximum vent opening to the exterior located within 1 in. (25 mm) of the bottom of the compartment, and shall not contain flame or spark producing equipment.

5.2.15.7 The regulator vent outlet shall be at least 2 in. (51 mm) above the compartment vent opening.

5.2.15.8 Regulators installed elsewhere and not installed in compartments as specified in 5.2.15.5 shall be equipped with a durable cover [that does not become brittle at temperatures as low as 40°F (40°C)] designed to protect the regulator vent opening from sleet, snow, freezing rain, ice, mud, and wheel spray.

5.2.15.9 If the regulator is not mounted by the recreational vehicle manufacturer, instructions for installation shall be supplied.

 

[Kentucky Dreaming]

Nolie was with me for 14 years

https://flic.kr/p/2pWci7K

Smelly farts

 

[desrtdog]

Another thing about Propane/Co2 detectors::: Dog farts will set them off. My POS truck camper has one at the appropriate location. right at floor level. Unfortunately it is right where my late Nolie slept. She was prone to gas in her old age. We were awakened many times by the alarm.

Hilarious… I’m going to put a propane detector next to my bed, because my bulldog Bubba can clear a room with one of his… however, I think there is something a bit more nefarious than just propane in his emissions…

Didn't need to hear that. Our dog's greatest talent is farting. That and anal gland issues.

Maybe a little propane leak wouldn't be so bad, after-all.

Yeah, the only thing worse than anal gland issues is when they express themselves on your arm as you try to pick the dog up…our first bully, Dominic, was notorious for that…

 

[Ozbozz57]

Yeah, you've got a point there, Rucker. Muchas gracias. I guess I was so focused on the safety aspects that I completely overlooked practical considerations

Ozzbozz, thanks so much. I appreciate the feedback. I hope to do essentially the same, only I'm going with copper (k) under the bus (and copper (L) inside). I've been designing the cabinetry housing all LPG stuff except the water heater (cabinetry which we're going to start building this weekend.... yay!), so I've now been forced to transition from vague ideas to painstaking detail .

What are y'all doing from the shutoff valve to the appliance? Flexible hose?

I used 3/8 soft copper with flare fittings for the short connectors from valves to appliance inlets. Arranged and fixed in rubber-coated hangers to prevent vibration. A well-made new soft copper flare, drawn up tight (first time crushed) will not leak.

 

[Ozbozz57]

Running that steel pipe isn't that bad. It was giving me fits threading it at first. The threads were tearing the metal, they just looked shitty. I thought my dies were dull, so I bought new ones. Didn't solve it. Finally went back to where i bought the pipe, and they said they'd gotten a bad batch of pipe - everyone was complaining. Got some new pipe, and it threaded just fine. The thing about steel gas pipe is it's pretty much bulletproof.

 

[nikitis]

@ewo1 So I've asked about the vertical placement of the regulator, and I'm told that todays regulators that's not required. Too many installers needed regulators designed to work horizontally so designs have changed.

However, it is wise to install sediment traps in the event that your propane isn't clean coming out of the tanks. Most propane systems do not have sediment traps in-line, but systems can still benefit from it.

This is a picture of one I did in my house. it's simply a Tee with a down pipe into nothing. Any weighted impurities will fall down into the bottom and not go into your appliance. My regulator is also horizontal right behind that wall.

Also when using black pipe for gas I would highly recommend using the yellow pipe dope. The yellow thread wrap stuff doesn't work as well on black pipe I've found. I would wrap it quite well and still get leaks, and I had a retired Gas installer tell me always use the pipe dope with black pipe. Flared connections like the yellow line in the pic above is not supposed to use anything, Just ensure it's a tight snug fit.

When using the yellow pipe dope, it requires 24 hours to cure before pressurizing.

I'm not 100% sure on the regulations for RV setups though, but I thought I remember reading somewhere it's not recommended to use black pipe in mobile vehicles for some reason. I need to look into that. But many RV experts have warned against using it due to movement of the vehicle it can crack couplings.

 

[TheHubbardBus]

I'm not 100% sure on the regulations for RV setups though, but I thought I remember reading somewhere it's not recommended to use black pipe in mobile vehicles for some reason. I need to look into that. But many RV experts have warned against using it due to movement of the vehicle it can crack couplings.

black pipe and copper are the two NFPA code-compliant options you can choose from for stuff under-the-bus. That's all I've got. And I sincerely appreciate the above advice, @nikitis. Many thanks.

@Kentucky Dreaming, I feel you. We lost our last girl this past year. Think she made it to ~12 (got her at the shelter, where she was supposedly 2, but you never know). Prior to that we had up to 8 dogs at once, most from the same litter, which means the ones who made it to old age all kinda went at the same time. Those were a really rough couple of years.

@desrtdog, tell me about it (lol)! Funny story: The other day, I'm sitting in the living room, and all of a sudden this whiff of "Oh no, not again" comes wafting by. "Baby, Brutus just expressed again"! Turns out he hadn't. Apparently my wife had just opened a bag of shrimp we had delivered! Needless to say, it had gone very, very bad. So if anyone ever asks you to explain what anal gland expression smells like... it's spoiled shrimp. Exactly spoiled shrimp. Disturbingly... spoiled shrimp.

@Ozbozz57, you sure do clean work. Can you elaborate on how that hanger is secured?