Shuttle Bus Mini Split

ahhh so 2.45 volts is my charging voltage max. not the standing voltage afterthe battery has rested.. even when I use a victron charger set uo for my AGM's.. (I have AGM starting and house batteries).. they still settle down in that 13 volt range after sitting.. thats with all the wires disconnected so I know the bus isnt pulling any parasitic loads..


is it the fact my batteries are sold as deep cycle "car" batteries? are they designed with possibly a lower standing cell voltage to betterhandle automotive conditions?
 
MUCH thanks to all the responses, especially Rock-n-Ruth and Albatross for the major contribution.


For clarity, my 12v alternator charging is done through a Renogy 50amp DC & Solar combo unit. However, that's going to have to go in favor of something that can handle more current. 50 amps won't touch refilling a 14kwh battery bank. I'll need around 116 amps at 24 volt or twice that much at 12v.



My batteries are all Lithium Iron Phosphate.



I accidentally ordered 500w solar panels instead of 550w so I'll be at 3k watts for now. I can add another 1k if I need to


I won't have roof space, but I've already designed a power deployment system where I can have 4 panels slide out the two sides of the bus with a button push. I'll be using 40" actuators.


I'll wire the panels in series/parallel to ensure the stored panels aren't affecting the exposed ones when retracted.


Lastly, I am considering installing a small 12v system for all of the 12v appliances and using the Renogy charger for that and then keep the large solar array for the A/C and 3kw inverter. The smaller system would probably be fine with just Alternator charging but I'll add a few smaller solar panels to help.


(I do know I can use a step-down transformer to get my 24v or 48v power down to 12v, but I already have the equipment so I might as well have separate systems)


For the A/C unit I am still trying to find a good place to mount a pioneer or other 110v system, but I am not having much luck. I have also read you can't run those while driving (is that true?). So I am leaning towards a 24v backpack A/C system. The newer ones use inverters so they should be fairly energy efficient and the size is perfect for the back of my bus. I won't go any lower than 12k BTU based on feedback on here. I'm having trouble finding one that does AC and Heat and uses an inverter, so I may have to go with a gasoline heater or electric heat. We won't be in sub zero temps, so it should be fine.



I realize that the windows are HUGE heat/cooling issues, but the shell itself seems to be well insulated as I looked closer. Fiberglass outer walls, foam insulation, etc. I added RBoard to the floor and plywood over that. We are adding a heated tile floor using flexible mortar and grout.
 
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Ruth and I have been off-grid cooling our big metal box in the Sun with solar powered mini splits since 2019. We live full-time in a 40 ft International rear engine bus in the chihuahuan desert of southwestern New Mexico.



One thing you don't mention, but I think is implied by the fact that you're charging your batteries with your alternator, is the base DC voltage of your system. I can tell you from experience, but if you are using 12 volts, you are losing a lot more of your energy to heat then you want to.



I can tell you that you would be best off going with a 12,000 BTU unit, simply because you are wanting to live in a bread box in the Sun. Insulation really does help, but it just doesn't eliminate the fact that it's a fiberglass and tin box in the Sun.


Are 12,000 BTU pioneer mini split, has been operated on a 24 volt battery system and a 48 volt battery system. The configuration of the battery was using the same cells. So the 24 volt batteries got into a 48 volt battery Bank and we actually did see an improvement in the number of hours we could run on batteries alone.



With that being said, you want to allow yourself 880 to 1000 Watts per hour of cooling or heating.



You can do a simple test with your current battery and inverter to see how many hours you get before needing to recharge.



Start with a fully charged battery. Then plug in a thousand watt space heater or hair dryer, and time how long it will run before your battery is depleted.



If you want to actually see those what hours in a readout, a plug-in kilowatt hour meter is about 30 bucks.



So after your load test you find out a 1 KW load for 9 hours, that means that you can probably run your air conditioning for about 9 hours before your battery is need recharged. That is also assuming that you have no other loads like a refrigerator television set or lights.



Now sizing your solar just to deal with that particular usage, you need to know how much you can capture from the Sun during your peaks on hours, and compare that to how much you need to put back into the battery.

You also want to add that to how much energy your mini split is going to be using during the day while you are charging the battery.



So if you're running your 12K mini split and it is using 900 w, and you need to put 9 KW back into the battery so you can run it all night again, you're going to want to be able to charge at at least 3 KW for 5 hours during the day. If you get less than 5 hours of peak sunshine, you're going to want to charge at a greater rate. The good news is that the amount of real estate you need is going down as the power rating of solar panels goes up.

It is possible to get 500 watt solar panels that measure about 70 in by 44 in for about 250 bucks each.

Ruth and I have been living on solar power since about 2017. How much solar we have, the size and voltage of our battery system, our charging and hybrid inverter system has all evolved as we figured out by trial and error what we needed in order to live in the comfort that we desired.

Our current system has two eg4 6000 XPS, 8000 watts of solar, and 34 kilowatt hours of batteries.



Now we can live as if we are plugged into the grid, and don't care what our electric bill is, because we have a sloppy abundance of power from the Sun. But it wasn't always that way.



I can tell you that if our budget had allowed it we would have started out where we are now. There's always a bit of waste involved when you keep sizing up and sizing up to meet your needs. When we started doing this there weren't a lot of people talking about how simpletons like me could do some pretty basic experiments to figure out what our power needs were. So we kind of reinvented the wheel on doing a power inventory a little at a time until we got where we wanted to be.


One option I might suggest if you have the budget for it, since you have limited real estate on a smaller bus for solar panels, is oversize your battery so that you can get three or four days of runtime in between complete charges. That way if you have some low production days, you're not having to run the generator or run your bus to catch up. And then in periods of time when the sun is shining and you're not in the house your solar panels can catch up as well.



A way to get more solar on your limited roof, is to stack them and put them on drawer slides. So it is possible but 5 kilowatts of solar on a short bus route.



And just one other mention since you are building in a bus, which moves and vibrates and can increase the possibility of internal failure in battery cells, use a safe battery chemistry like LiFeP04 rather than lithium ion or lithium polymer batteries.


The last thing that you want to experience in your bus is a battery fire. One of the things that you might not see mentioned when you look at YouTube videos regarding battery fires in automobiles and transit buses, is the fact that a lithium ion battery makes everything in its chemistry that is needed for combustion. So when I run away reaction happens it is making its own fuel and its own oxygen so it's really really hard to put out.



Another off-grid mini split option you might try, a company in Las Vegas Nevada sells a unit called the air spool. Eg4 also has a version of this unit, you plug solar panels directly into it, and then it's got a regular household plug that plugs into the wall. You can leave it unplugged from the wall and it will run only when the sun is shining, or you can plug it into the wall and it will run off your inverter when the Sun goes down or there's not enough Sun, or it will combine what it's panels are getting from the Sun with what it needs from the wall in order to produce your load.

I installed one of these airspole units on a friend of mine's home about 2 years ago. I installed more solar panels than it called for, it said that it would run happily on a minimum of 800 to 1200 w. I put about 2,400 watts of panels on the roof, and the air conditioner runs almost all day long just on Sunshine.
The air spool unit also has a mode where it will limit its current needs to about 300 watts. I was really surprised how well it worked even in this mode.




Much thanks for this info. I am re-installing the battery system right now and the panels arrive Thursday. I still need to find the right Charge controller.


I found your comment about getting more run time with the 48v configuration than the 24v. That is very interesting and based on that I may just bite the bullet and go 48v.



My ambient temps won't be anywhere near desert temps, my bus has very little metal, is much smaller than yours, etc So I think my setup will be adequate. 3-4k watts of panels and 48v 14kwh battery bank. I can add batteries later if I need to. Money isn't much of a concern there, but space is. The current pack takes up a lot of space. I would have to give something up to add much more.


As an aside note, on the rest of the bus, I have 132 gallons of fresh water, 40 gallon black tank, 48 gallon grey tank, and a residential .8 gpf toilet. I know that's unusual but it was a must have for the wife. It has in In-wall tank and it floats so it is inside my 36X32 shower and doubles as a shower seat. The tank is fully enclosed in the wall so the toilet doesn't stick out very far. We will see how it travels, but she absolutely loves it.



We won't be living in it, just taking 1-2 week long trips at a time.



We have the Instashower Plus 8 water heater and I am using 12v/110v coolers for fridge and freezer. one is 50 qt and the other is 32q. They can be set to be both used as fridges, both as freezers, or any combination thereof.


I've also installed the Maxxair Deluxe vent fan that we can use in moderate weather in lieu of the A/C. We have large Handicap access doors in the side (behind the regular glass double doors) that can open.


We have a Microwave, Air Fryer, Conventional oven combo unit and will install gas burners for cooking when we build the sink and cabinets.



The bus is a 2014 E450 Super Duty Challenger. So far we love the setup.


As for the solar controller, any suggestions? I would like to get a hybrid controller. That way I can have it automatically switch to shore power when plugged in, have a built in inverter, etc. so a one-unit-does-it-all solution.
 
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ahhh so 2.45 volts is my charging voltage max. not the standing voltage afterthe battery has rested.. even when I use a victron charger set uo for my AGM's.. (I have AGM starting and house batteries).. they still settle down in that 13 volt range after sitting.. thats with all the wires disconnected so I know the bus isnt pulling any parasitic loads..

is it the fact my batteries are sold as deep cycle "car" batteries? are they designed with possibly a lower standing cell voltage to betterhandle automotive conditions?


While I would like to agree with such a reasonable assumption, the actual reality (as I understand it) is something like the theoretical max versus real-world conditions.



Perhaps if you have a perfect and brand-new battery, with a custom handmade charge controller built by someone like Tesla or any of Edison's workhorses, you might be able to achieve that once or twice. But the reality is that even Gel-Mat batteries will develop some sulfation on the lead plates/mesh, and over time you'll lose a bit of that extreme top-end. To reach that point, you also need to slowly increase the voltage up to something like 15V or more while the current decreases to effectively nothing. And due to the way charging works internally with a 12V battery, you're also likely to boil off some of the hydroxide into hydrogen gas, which is usually a bad thing, and requires maintenance of the fluid to correct. This is why most battery chargers only reach up to something like an actual 95% or thereabouts of the theoretical max charge.


Especially when you consider how little charge one gets out of that last little bit, it's better to simply tolerate the 88% charge or whatever the alternator puts out, or the 92%-95% of theoretical max that you can get with a high-quality MPPT charger or whatever hooked up to a solar system. It gives you the juice that you need with the compromise of making the battery last much longer.



Myself, I'm pretty sure that I've got some yellow-top Optimas in the truck side, and blue-tops in the house side of my bank. I bought them all in the same three months or so, and because they're all the same brand and all AGMs, I don't really worry about using a direct cross-connection like older RVs did using the same parts, or using the relay's option to temporarily connect the battery banks together to jump-star the truck, and all the other things that one generally shouldn't do. And when my batteries aren't under a load after being fully charged, they're usually sitting around 13.8 Volts or something like that. I've only seen them up around 14.4 after an equalizing charge under no-load testing with a smaller volt-meter.
 
For clarity, my 12v alternator charging is done through a Renogy 50amp DC & Solar combo unit. However, that's going to have to go in favor of something that can handle more current. 50 amps won't touch refilling a 14kwh battery bank. I'll need around 116 amps at 24 volt or twice that much at 12v.

My batteries are all Lithium Iron Phosphate.

I accidentally ordered 500w solar panels instead of 550w so I'll be at 3k watts for now. I can add another 1k if I need to

I won't have roof space, but I've already designed a power deployment system where I can have 4 panels slide out the two sides of the bus with a button push. I'll be using 40" actuators.

I'll wire the panels in series/parallel to ensure the stored panels aren't affecting the exposed ones when retracted.

Lastly, I am considering installing a small 12v system for all of the 12v appliances and using the Renogy charger for that and then keep the large solar array for the A/C and 3kw inverter. The smaller system would probably be fine with just Alternator charging but I'll add a few smaller solar panels to help.


All I would say is that if you're going to build a 12V system, I would do build it like a normal system with a breaker box or a fuse box, and I would put a 1:1 DC-DC transformer in front of the distro box with some kind of power conditioner/regulator, despite the fact that most 12V appliances and such are already behind their own conditioner/transformer. It's better to spend a little bit more on the build and protect your investments than it is to figure out you've got an issue with your alternator's voltage regulator because it fried your fridge or something else like that.
 
While I would like to agree with such a reasonable assumption, the actual reality (as I understand it) is something like the theoretical max versus real-world conditions.



Perhaps if you have a perfect and brand-new battery, with a custom handmade charge controller built by someone like Tesla or any of Edison's workhorses, you might be able to achieve that once or twice. But the reality is that even Gel-Mat batteries will develop some sulfation on the lead plates/mesh, and over time you'll lose a bit of that extreme top-end. To reach that point, you also need to slowly increase the voltage up to something like 15V or more while the current decreases to effectively nothing. And due to the way charging works internally with a 12V battery, you're also likely to boil off some of the hydroxide into hydrogen gas, which is usually a bad thing, and requires maintenance of the fluid to correct. This is why most battery chargers only reach up to something like an actual 95% or thereabouts of the theoretical max charge.


Especially when you consider how little charge one gets out of that last little bit, it's better to simply tolerate the 88% charge or whatever the alternator puts out, or the 92%-95% of theoretical max that you can get with a high-quality MPPT charger or whatever hooked up to a solar system. It gives you the juice that you need with the compromise of making the battery last much longer.



Myself, I'm pretty sure that I've got some yellow-top Optimas in the truck side, and blue-tops in the house side of my bank. I bought them all in the same three months or so, and because they're all the same brand and all AGMs, I don't really worry about using a direct cross-connection like older RVs did using the same parts, or using the relay's option to temporarily connect the battery banks together to jump-star the truck, and all the other things that one generally shouldn't do. And when my batteries aren't under a load after being fully charged, they're usually sitting around 13.8 Volts or something like that. I've only seen them up around 14.4 after an equalizing charge under no-load testing with a smaller volt-meter.


im definitely not a perfectionist when it comes to batteries.. I do notice that the plug-in charger chargers them higher than my alternator.. when im travelling the alternator is the only ay I charge them.. (AGM).. 2 different brans of AGM.. no idea as to what one brand has for its stats as theres no true datasheet provided on those (batteries plus) batteries... the house batteries I have a data sheet and set the plug-in charger up to the specs provided.. and it does as you talk of.. slowly increases voltage as the state of charge increases.. its a victron IP21 charger.. I really only ever plug it in during the winter when im using the bus as a mobile office running the heat for several hours or more at a time.. so at night when I park it i plug the charger in. the rest of the time the alternator does it.. I have enough extra capacity that it doesnt matter if im always full-up.
 
to the OP talking of running a minisplit on the road.. you can.. but why? 99% of the shuttle busses ive run across have factory air conditioning for the road.. use that on the road.. keep the inside of the bus nice N cool then when you park your bus is already cool and your minisplit handles the maintaining of the temp...



running the minisplit is deoendent on the installation.. the wrong wind currents will trigger it to error out.. if it thinks the outdoor fan is being bound up it will error out...



it also puts strain on your electrical system. on the road it will likely max out at 1100-1200 watts and just run trying to keeo a bus cool on the road (which isnt where it shines).. so that means you need to either have solar putting out enough to run it and also charge your batteries or have your alternator being worked hard to provide the power...
 
im definitely not a perfectionist when it comes to batteries.. I do notice that the plug-in charger chargers them higher than my alternator.. when im travelling the alternator is the only ay I charge them.. (AGM).. 2 different brans of AGM.. no idea as to what one brand has for its stats as theres no true datasheet provided on those (batteries plus) batteries... the house batteries I have a data sheet and set the plug-in charger up to the specs provided.. and it does as you talk of.. slowly increases voltage as the state of charge increases.. its a victron IP21 charger.. I really only ever plug it in during the winter when im using the bus as a mobile office running the heat for several hours or more at a time.. so at night when I park it i plug the charger in. the rest of the time the alternator does it.. I have enough extra capacity that it doesnt matter if im always full-up.


Yes, that is because of the real-world conditions that people experience between charging with an alternator versus charging off a constant and steady wall-voltage.

If you think about it, your alternator is anything but steady, unless you live way out in the country and once you pull out of your driveway you're doing highway speeds until you get to where you're going, and then you turn it off; whereas the electricity coming out of the wall is essentially extremely steady. Sure, if you got a map of the electrical provisioning area, you could easily find voltages at 122VAC right next to the tower or distro-plant, and way down at the end of the line it might be something like 111 VAC, but if you monitor the actual output from a single wall-socket, it's going to remain quite steady, maybe varying a volt or two, with maybe a 2-3 volt dip if/when your AC compressor kicks on or if someone plugs in a vacuum cleaner.



Because of the steady power output of your wall, it's much easier to build-in the proper power program in a wall-charger to be able to properly detect battery-voltage and step up the charger-voltage while also reducing the current so as to get a proper charge-curve (like I linked earlier) whereas most alternators are supposed to have a proper voltage-output, but their current ratings will be all over the place based on engine RPMs. Sure, you've got a nice output on the highway, but then all-of-a-sudden you've got to hit town during rush hour, and your alternator lacks the current output to get an effective charge, especially if it's got to step-up the voltage in order to charge a battery past around 90%. And that's primarily because a long, long time ago, some engineers made the decision that a battery at 90% is essentially just as good as a battery at 100%, and it side-steps the weird charge-curve voltage-detection needs as well as the fluid voltage step-up with the simultaneous decrease in current.



Basically the alternator is a hack and a patch to prevent a problem from happening. It assumes that you're starting with a mostly-charged battery, usually something at least 80% or so, that you might drain to around 75% starting the engine up in normal conditions. Perhaps you've left some lights on for awhile and/or had a really rough time trying to fire it up, oh well, it should work all the way down to around 60% or so, maybe 50%-55% if you're also using some starting-fluid. The alternator is capable of handling the charging-needs of a lead-acid battery from around 33%-50% up to around 90%, where the charge-curve comes back into play. This zone is known as the "bulk-charging" portion of the curve, and is pretty much set-and-forget throughout the zone, having a set voltage, and pretty much being able to handle almost as much current as you can throw at it. Which makes the alternator pretty much a perfect tool for that job. You don't really lose much (for the application) because the alternator cannot adequately finish the job, and the only downside is that after around 5 years or so, you'll have enough sulfation on the lead plates that your battery's maximum KWh will decrease to a point where it might become a problem. If you increase the size of the battery slightly, such as I did on my ranger (using a full-size pickup battery) then you wind up with a system where your battery will usually last 10 years or so before you need to worry about it not being able to handle the load it is designed to.



And, if for any reason during the life of an auto battery (as opposed to a house or deep-discharge battery), you happen to have a reason to hook it up to a wall-charger that can detect the need for and perform an "equalizing charge", which essentially has the ability to vary or "vibrate" the electrical charge as it's charging, then it is supposed to "knock the sulfates off the lead plates" and cause the sulfates to be reabsorbed into the acid, essentially making the battery as close-to-new as you possibly can get based on the specific-gravity of the acid contained in the cells. Doing this can extend the life of your (truck) batteries, and I've personally had el cheapo walmart batteries last for almost 20 years doing an equalizing charge every 2-3 years. A proper equalizing charge will usually take somewhere between 12-24 hours to complete, but most chargers will tell you to leave it for 24 just to be sure; that time-period is generally based on something like an RV or other unused battery that also needs a topping-charge in addition, and will usually have some kind of extra or red LED to indicate that it is in the middle of an equalizing-charge, and should not be unplugged.
 
Yes, that is because of the real-world conditions that people experience between charging with an alternator versus charging off a constant and steady wall-voltage.

If you think about it, your alternator is anything but steady, unless you live way out in the country and once you pull out of your driveway you're doing highway speeds until you get to where you're going, and then you turn it off; whereas the electricity coming out of the wall is essentially extremely steady. Sure, if you got a map of the electrical provisioning area, you could easily find voltages at 122VAC right next to the tower or distro-plant, and way down at the end of the line it might be something like 111 VAC, but if you monitor the actual output from a single wall-socket, it's going to remain quite steady, maybe varying a volt or two, with maybe a 2-3 volt dip if/when your AC compressor kicks on or if someone plugs in a vacuum cleaner.



Because of the steady power output of your wall, it's much easier to build-in the proper power program in a wall-charger to be able to properly detect battery-voltage and step up the charger-voltage while also reducing the current so as to get a proper charge-curve (like I linked earlier) whereas most alternators are supposed to have a proper voltage-output, but their current ratings will be all over the place based on engine RPMs. Sure, you've got a nice output on the highway, but then all-of-a-sudden you've got to hit town during rush hour, and your alternator lacks the current output to get an effective charge, especially if it's got to step-up the voltage in order to charge a battery past around 90%. And that's primarily because a long, long time ago, some engineers made the decision that a battery at 90% is essentially just as good as a battery at 100%, and it side-steps the weird charge-curve voltage-detection needs as well as the fluid voltage step-up with the simultaneous decrease in current.



Basically the alternator is a hack and a patch to prevent a problem from happening. It assumes that you're starting with a mostly-charged battery, usually something at least 80% or so, that you might drain to around 75% starting the engine up in normal conditions. Perhaps you've left some lights on for awhile and/or had a really rough time trying to fire it up, oh well, it should work all the way down to around 60% or so, maybe 50%-55% if you're also using some starting-fluid. The alternator is capable of handling the charging-needs of a lead-acid battery from around 33%-50% up to around 90%, where the charge-curve comes back into play. This zone is known as the "bulk-charging" portion of the curve, and is pretty much set-and-forget throughout the zone, having a set voltage, and pretty much being able to handle almost as much current as you can throw at it. Which makes the alternator pretty much a perfect tool for that job. You don't really lose much (for the application) because the alternator cannot adequately finish the job, and the only downside is that after around 5 years or so, you'll have enough sulfation on the lead plates that your battery's maximum KWh will decrease to a point where it might become a problem. If you increase the size of the battery slightly, such as I did on my ranger (using a full-size pickup battery) then you wind up with a system where your battery will usually last 10 years or so before you need to worry about it not being able to handle the load it is designed to.



And, if for any reason during the life of an auto battery (as opposed to a house or deep-discharge battery), you happen to have a reason to hook it up to a wall-charger that can detect the need for and perform an "equalizing charge", which essentially has the ability to vary or "vibrate" the electrical charge as it's charging, then it is supposed to "knock the sulfates off the lead plates" and cause the sulfates to be reabsorbed into the acid, essentially making the battery as close-to-new as you possibly can get based on the specific-gravity of the acid contained in the cells. Doing this can extend the life of your (truck) batteries, and I've personally had el cheapo walmart batteries last for almost 20 years doing an equalizing charge every 2-3 years. A proper equalizing charge will usually take somewhere between 12-24 hours to complete, but most chargers will tell you to leave it for 24 just to be sure; that time-period is generally based on something like an RV or other unused battery that also needs a topping-charge in addition, and will usually have some kind of extra or red LED to indicate that it is in the middle of an equalizing-charge, and should not be unplugged.


great info and pretty much describes my setup to a T... I do use AGM batteries for all of them.. starting and "house".. but ive had great luck with long life out of the batteries.. I had one "bad" experience with batteries in my Redbyrd with rural king basic batteries... they lasted a year and done...



do AGM batteries also suffer the sulfate crystalization issue? I use a Victron IP21 charger in each bus qwhen i plug in.. its necessary in my redbyrd as the ECM will slowly discharge the batteries over a period of a few weeks ill see the standing voltage on the set down to 12.1 or so.. so ive come to plugging it in once a week or so when im at home.. the problem gets a little worse in cold weather... I believe i read someplace that the webasto heater in it has a keep warm function of the combustion chamber when its below 20F.. where it pulses its glowplug on and off to keep the chamber at 40 or so...



I looked and those victron chargers have an equalization function on them.. ive never used it.. i use the auto function.. which has modes just as you describe.. a bulk phase then goes to absorption and float.. if it can benefit my AGM's i'll run it through a cycle periodically..



does it benefit me to use a DC-DC regulated charger for when my alternator charges the house batteries?
 
great info and pretty much describes my setup to a T... I do use AGM batteries for all of them.. starting and "house".. but ive had great luck with long life out of the batteries.. I had one "bad" experience with batteries in my Redbyrd with rural king basic batteries... they lasted a year and done...

do AGM batteries also suffer the sulfate crystalization issue? I use a Victron IP21 charger in each bus qwhen i plug in.. its necessary in my redbyrd as the ECM will slowly discharge the batteries over a period of a few weeks ill see the standing voltage on the set down to 12.1 or so.. so ive come to plugging it in once a week or so when im at home.. the problem gets a little worse in cold weather... I believe i read someplace that the webasto heater in it has a keep warm function of the combustion chamber when its below 20F.. where it pulses its glowplug on and off to keep the chamber at 40 or so...

I looked and those victron chargers have an equalization function on them.. ive never used it.. i use the auto function.. which has modes just as you describe.. a bulk phase then goes to absorption and float.. if it can benefit my AGM's i'll run it through a cycle periodically..

does it benefit me to use a DC-DC regulated charger for when my alternator charges the house batteries?


AGMs suffer from the same problems as 'regular' PbSO4 batteries because it is the exact same chemistry. The problem is worse because instead of lead-plates they use a mesh (greater surface area), and better (because of the increased surface area, the problem is more widely-distributed across the whole of the cell). What this means in real-world terms is that you're far less likely to have a noticeable problem until you NOTICE it, in which case you're most-likely to simply toss it and go buy a new battery. And this solution works for most people.



For most advanced chargers, like you have in the Victron, 'auto' mode is probably sufficient. Most of them can detect based on the battery's output if a problem is happening, and they will usually do an equalizing charge every six months or so. But if you'd really like to be sure, once a year you can tell it to perform an equalizing charge once you figure out how to do that from your keypad interface.



A DC:DC transformer likely won't help you much, but it also won't hurt, either. Essentially, it's just a 1:1 transformer which isolates each side from the other, so transients like when your AC compressor kicks on, or when the motor is starting, won't generally affect what is happening on the other side. If you were going to do anything, I would say that one of those heavy-duty 1-3 Megafarad mega-capacitors like they use for insane stereo systems placed in-line between your load and your batteries would solve any issues you might be having. Ideally, somewhere between the "Master" side of the bus-bar and the battery itself is perfect.
 
AGMs suffer from the same problems as 'regular' PbSO4 batteries because it is the exact same chemistry. The problem is worse because instead of lead-plates they use a mesh (greater surface area), and better (because of the increased surface area, the problem is more widely-distributed across the whole of the cell). What this means in real-world terms is that you're far less likely to have a noticeable problem until you NOTICE it, in which case you're most-likely to simply toss it and go buy a new battery. And this solution works for most people.



For most advanced chargers, like you have in the Victron, 'auto' mode is probably sufficient. Most of them can detect based on the battery's output if a problem is happening, and they will usually do an equalizing charge every six months or so. But if you'd really like to be sure, once a year you can tell it to perform an equalizing charge once you figure out how to do that from your keypad interface.



A DC:DC transformer likely won't help you much, but it also won't hurt, either. Essentially, it's just a 1:1 transformer which isolates each side from the other, so transients like when your AC compressor kicks on, or when the motor is starting, won't generally affect what is happening on the other side. If you were going to do anything, I would say that one of those heavy-duty 1-3 Megafarad mega-capacitors like they use for insane stereo systems placed in-line between your load and your batteries would solve any issues you might be having. Ideally, somewhere between the "Master" side of the bus-bar and the battery itself is perfect.




I didnt realize the DC-DC chargers are just transformers.. i was thinking they were regulated chargers that output the correct voltage for the charge % of the battery.. if its just a transformer i wont bother..


my victron is bluetooth so i use a phone app to select the various modes... it goes into normal auto when you first plug it in .. if you just leave it on forever it eventually puts the battery in "storage" where i guess it just pulses a little charge now and then when it sees the voltage drop a bit... I often leave the red bus in this state when im travelling (by plane) for work weeks at a time
 
I didnt realize the DC-DC chargers are just transformers.. i was thinking they were regulated chargers that output the correct voltage for the charge % of the battery.. if its just a transformer i wont bother..

my victron is bluetooth so i use a phone app to select the various modes... it goes into normal auto when you first plug it in .. if you just leave it on forever it eventually puts the battery in "storage" where i guess it just pulses a little charge now and then when it sees the voltage drop a bit... I often leave the red bus in this state when im travelling (by plane) for work weeks at a time


Well, I'm sure the more advanced and more expensive ones are better and have more to them, but what you're talking about would technically be considered a charge controller; just like the ones you plug into your wall, but these should clamp to a battery instead.... But the meat & bones of it is going to be a transformer. I am also sure that you can probably find some without the transformer, but honestly, for the sake of doing things right, I probably wouldn't bother with those.
 
My DCDC charge controller is exactly what it says it is: a device that takes DC current and applies it to a DC circuit and is configurable to a number of battery types.

Sure, call it a glorified transformer. There's no cheaper nor more practical way to pull juice from the alternator.

Mine cost about $170.
 
My DCDC charge controller is exactly what it says it is: a device that takes DC current and applies it to a DC circuit and is configurable to a number of battery types.

Sure, call it a glorified transformer. There's no cheaper nor more practical way to pull juice from the alternator.

Mine cost about $170.


Absolutely.



Just because I can buy the parts and build something to do that myself doesn't mean that I want to, or that it would be better than something built by a company that's been doing it for years, and has sold thousands or millions of units.
 
I didnt realize the DC-DC chargers are just transformers.. i was thinking they were regulated chargers that output the correct voltage for the charge % of the battery.. if its just a transformer i wont bother..

Just note that DC cannot be changed with a transformer, only alternating current. The output of any step-down transformer inside is going to go through a rectification stage (minimally) to make it DC voltage.

Call it 'glorified' maybe, but there's a lot more going on inside a DC to DC converter depending on the type of unit.
 
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Just note that DC cannot be changed with a transformer, only alternating current. The output of any step-down transformer inside is going to go through a rectification stage (minimally) to make it DC voltage.

Call it 'glorified' maybe, but there's a lot more going on inside a DC to DC converter depending on the type of unit.


Yes, but "transformer" makes more sense to people that talking about a buck-boost chopper circuit with capitors to turn it into a square-wave generator so that the bridge-rectifier diode-loop can smooth it back out again before the avalanche and Zener diodes control the output to what is expected.
 
Yes, but "transformer" makes more sense to people that talking about a buck-boost chopper circuit with capitors to turn it into a square-wave generator so that the bridge-rectifier diode-loop can smooth it back out again before the avalanche and Zener diodes control the output to what is expected.

But where do I plug the thermo-heliostat in?
:hide::hide:
 
Yes, but "transformer" makes more sense to people that talking about a buck-boost chopper circuit with capitors to turn it into a square-wave generator so that the bridge-rectifier diode-loop can smooth it back out again before the avalanche and Zener diodes control the output to what is expected.

True, just trying to avoid lingering misconceptions. ;>)
 

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