Starter staying engaged, head scratcher!!

[johnforrest]

I was having the starter sticking or staying engaged periodically. I just assumed it was the bigger of the two solenoids attached to the starter so I took it in and had it replaced.

Hooking it all back up, I and wasn't sure about a second small wire being connected with the little wire coming down from the key. I assume its an ECM wire but not sure. So I left it unhooked to test the new solenoid.

Starter worked fine but the bus wouldn't fire so I hooked what I think is ECM wire and the starter stuck enguaged the first try.

I've tested the starter/key switch and it works ok.

I have grounded my interlock relay a few months ago and the starter was working ok till it started sticking.


If anyone has a 2006 IH 466, would you look and tell me if you have two red wires on the spot that energizes the starter?

Wondering if the ECM or what ever that 2nd wire is, is feeding 12 volts to that energizing connection after I turn the key off?

My dealer wasn't much help, he suggested the key switch but that seems ok.

Where is a good place to look up wiring for this?

 

[johnforrest]

turns out there are a couple of relays that might be stuck shut so Im off to check them out.

 

[johnforrest]

not sure how that could be?

 

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

Usually when a starter starts sticking it means either the bendix is starting to go out or that the starter needs to be pulled and the gear and shaft needs to be cleaned and greases which would make it stick.
Food for thought from a pre computer involved mess mechanic?
Can still do some if I have to.
but for my personal stuff? No way.
Good luck

 

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

Don't know how to test a relay except for swapping in an equal from the fuse box.
Starters are/were? simple creatures and shouldn't have ECM connections?
Only main hot
Ignition power from the key switch/button
And ground from solenoid to starter body
The starter and bolts ground it to the motor.
Good luck

 

[johnforrest]

Starter relays

So there are two starter relays, mine were behind the driver side wiper doors, that could be sticking closed and keeping the starter engaged. I bought a new relay and tried it in each of the old positions. My starter continued to stick on.

So I tried to isolate what was adding power to starter after I turned the key off.

I unhooked the two small wires from the starter. 1st I hooked a test light to the wire coming down from interlock relay... that wire alone tested fine.

2nd tested a second red wire from a loom right on top of the starter location. I assume this wire should be hooked up with the 1st wire from interlock. It tests normal.

But when I join the wires together as they would be when they are connected to the starter, the tester lights up and stays lit after I let go of the key. Light goes out if I turn the key to off.

Now I see something called "overcrank protection" and they Talk about it being a yellow relay behind the dash on driver side. headed out to look for that.

Any ideas?

 

[johnforrest]

By the way... Ive had the starter itself looked at and its ok

 

[BlackJohn]

I think you really need to go back and read about starter operation.
From what you say, I am having trouble following you.
Testing of the red wires? For what, voltage or continuity or why not both?
They each will tell a different story and how to approach a fix.
Could be a bad starter relay that has contacts welded shut thereby keeping the solenoid from grounding out when the key is turned to run position.
Not sure how clearly that relay is marked or if you even have the right one picked out.
Did you take pics of previous connections before you took things apart?
maybe those wires have nothing to do with the start solenoid and are meant to be on the main starter terminals to power other options.
Bendix spring being weak may not be doing it's job but the way you describe things, you have to eliminate the simple things first.
You should just never buy new parts if you don't know the old ones are bad, you have to learn to troubleshoot these things. That is for everybody, starter operation knowledge gives you a chance to repair yourself, otherwise those shops will hose you pretty good.


John

 

[johnforrest]

testing for 12 volts, the two red wires are the wires connected to the s terminal on the starter. The starter is supposed to be OK. Bendix is supposed to be OK too. The two small red wires have little rings on them they cant go on battery terminals. s terminal only one they fit on. no pic i admit I am not sure about 2nd wire from loom, but I am sure wire from interlock goes to s terminal. What is odd is when connected together they stay 12 volt energized after I release the key. thus keeping the starter energized.

 

[BlackJohn]

So both red wires have voltage joined together, connected to the solenoid on the starter, with the key off?
If only one is hot when they are separated and key is "off", means a different 12v source.
Wrap that in tape and install the other one without power in the key off position. That wire you just put on will liven up thru the start relay operation. So starter will turn like that? And release?
Worry about the second wire after getting the bus running. It will show up likely. I can't think of any good reason for it to be connected there to the start solenoid, except for future or troubleshooting purposes.


Good luck,


John

 

[johnforrest]

When I am testing the two small wires I am disconnecting them from the starter and connecting my 12 volt test light to the loose end and turning the key to start position. Individually both wires light the light and shut off when I let go of the key. in other words they act normal to me.

But when I joint the loose ends together and test them by turning the key to start , the light stays on when I let go of the key and stays on until i turn the key to off.

 

[BlackJohn]

When I am testing the two small wires I am disconnecting them from the starter and connecting my 12 volt test light to the loose end and turning the key to start position. Individually both wires light the light and shut off when I let go of the key. in other words they act normal to me.

But when I joint the loose ends together and test them by turning the key to start , the light stays on when I let go of the key and stays on until i turn the key to off.

The problem here is that the wire needed for the solenoid operation, needs to be dead when connected to the solenoid. Then the key will energize the start relay, the solenoid operates and let's the high voltage operate the starter motor.

So as you have it, neither wire should be used until traced to find why they have power on them. This will lead you to the correct relay I presume. Then test the relay for continuity of its coil and also to see if the power contacts are open or closed.
If the starter relay coil is bad it may enable the power contacts to remain closed all the time rather than with the key operation to start.
not an easy fix it seems.
So a few questions for you.
1) Did you remove the starter personally and reinstall it?
2)You said it tested ok and bendix was good. So do you have an idea how it was tested at all? bench with and without power on? Any reputable shop would have told you the details but did you just accept what they tell you?
3) Those starters are heavy. Did you drop, or bump it at all going in or out of the bus? That could be enough to damage the trueness of the armature shaft, making it slow or even worse. Did that shaft spin ok on its bearings when you installed it.
4)How was the solenoid tested and verified before installation?
You might hear it work but internally it could be not retracting full to disengage when installed.
So lots to consider here but could also be the ign switch operation. Going from start to run position is somehow compromised and may be an easy fix, maybe not, but has to be veriified also.
5) When you try to start, is the battery cable hot during/after trying?
Your starter shop should have told you how much load that starter draws with and without a load, think in hundreds of amps!


All I can think of doing for now.


John

 

[johnforrest]

I appreciate all the ideas, a fella gets an idea what he thinks is wrong and focuses on that.

A new solenoid was put on by 30 year starter vet, about as good a guy as you could find and I haven't dropped it.

The two small wires when hooked together (but not connected to starter) both go dead when key is returned to off but they stay hot after releasing the key to run after turning to start. Tested individually, they each get hot on start and go cold on run, like they should.

I assume there is another relay somewhere? They talk about a yellow one (associated with overcrank protection) somewhere on passenger side dash but I cant locate it so far.

I couldn't find a number on the red wire coming down from the loom over the starter, so that's gonna be tough to trace. My local IH dealer are not interested in helping a little guy and said they couldn't get a wiring diagram of this particular vehicle.

I want to get to the bottom of what this other wire really does (the wire from the loom over the starter) and why there would be two wires hooked into the S terminal on the little solenoid. When everything's hooked up the starter is acting exactly the way it did when I first started to work on it but now I am gun shy this second wire belongs somewhere else. Just doesn't make sense there would be a second wire to energize the solenoid, that would let bus start with out interlock working.

Still wishing someone with a 2006 FE 300 woulds look at theirs and tell me whats hooked up to their S terminal. And where else that wire from the loom might go? I would think any 2004 on, 466E would also be the same.

 

[BlackJohn]

Stay focused and don't be overwhelmed with this issue.

Go step by step, know all the components and how they act upon energizing.
Tracing is a pain but no pain, no gain. Maybe get a helper when doing that, and check for continuity with batteries disconnected. The answers are there.


John

 

[johnforrest]

Problem solved, maybe

So early on in the thread I mentioned grounding the interlock relay. I used a method mentioned several places on Skpplie Site. Also on you tube. It made sense to me that all the interlock wiring ended up as a grounded wire back at the trigger terminal on the relay. So maybe that's not how my bus works. Talking to a bus mechanic. I mentioned how I grounded my interlock he looked at me like I was crazy.

Turns out my bus should work the opposite. If the interlock is open it sends a ground down to the S terminal and keeps the starter from being energized by the wire from the loom close to the starter. The wire from the interlock relay should never have power only a ground down to the S terminal to stop starting.

I'm not sure how mine started OK for a while after grounding my interlock but it did. Once I disconnected the whole interlock and used just the short one from the loom, everything works fine. Bus started 5-6 times in a row and never had the starter stay engaged once...cross your fingers.

I hope this helps somebody down the road. Not sure if there is a way to add key words to thread or not. Also thanks to the guis that tried to help me.

John