Straight Bussin, no cap fr fr.

[ewo1]

lol

You either need more, or less, beer! lol

Adding resistance to a cicuit will reduce amperage, right? What are we missing????? lol

Maybe I need the beer. Last one was new years Eve....of 1997!

Here, I'll share some with ya...

 

[ewo1]

The bold in the quote is a straw man argument. You've COMPLETELY changed the issue.

Go back to post #329. If you can't see it clearly now, try again later.

that's the best you can do....re-direct?

Have two big swigs of that delicious Rum!

 

[ewo1]

well I hope you enjoyed the rum... I did!

As you requested, i went back to post 329.

I find this quite easy to say, we are both correct in our statements.
I like to view things from a "flexible" point of view and I keep getting the feeling you just like to point out how someone might be wrong without really adding constructive "words" that serve to move things forward.
that's ok, i can agree to disagree with you...I'll just share some more rum...

Lets go back..

post #329

When you replace an incandescent with an LED you will have to ensure that LED resistance is enough in order to even work on the circuit.

Prove that. I think your claim is false. I think any circuit that was designed for powering an incandecant bulb can power an LED...enough to make it light. Any dimming or pulsing controls might not work, depending on design.

If I took a simple pc mount LED and feed it 12 volts, she will burn bright and burn up quick!. If I add a 500 ohm resistor in series, it will not be as bright. so you are correct with this very simple circuit example. again, only looking at one LED, one Resistor, one wire and nothing else.
done!

this is why you need to change the blinker flasher from incandescent to LED because the LED do not provide enough impedance or resistive load to turn on properly.

I was quite clear here when adding the blinker flasher. I did not change anything like you said I did...

Not at all, actually backward. An old "flasher" used the heat generated from the load (amperage) of the bulbs to heat a bimetallic spring which flexed one way when heated and the opposite when cooling. Hence, a switched circuit based on load. LEDs will not draw enough amperage to create that heat.

You are actually agreeing with me here.. too funny.
Like I mentioned later on, you got to look at all the variables of the circuit your working on.

so again, we are both correct, no winners.... Let's get constructive and actually help others go forward instead of simply pointing out minor issues and spinning them around ad nauseum.

* LED....yall are right on several aspects. Diodes = check valve = directional in that regard. Anode/cathode, all correct.

 

[TheHubbardBus]

I always figured build threads were the one place where having long-winded arguments over trivialities was in bad form.

 

[Mr P]

If we had a diagram of Nikitis' bus dash, I'd bet we'd find a way LEDs would work.

And point taken from HubbardBus.

Apologies for the mess.

 

[ewo1]

I always figured build threads were the one place where having long-winded arguments over trivialities was in bad form.

I have to agree... My apologies to all and Nikitis, for venting...

 

[ewo1]

If we had a diagram of Nikitis' bus dash, I'd bet we'd find a way LEDs would work.

And point taken from HubbardBus.

Apologies for the mess.

my apology extends to you too...

 

[Mr P]

^ Likewise.

 

[nikitis]

Lol, woke up to a long conversation. I'll only add that my view of resistors being required in line to add LEDs to some older designed circuits was cause the amperage was too high in line.

In this scenario, a circuit was designed before LEDs were even a thing and the circuit pushed high amps in order to heat up existing elements in incandescent bulbs. The elements themselves are simply resistors but fighting against that resistance is a "push" of amperage which generates heat thus the red cherry glow of the element thus creating light.

I view amperage as a push not a draw. Whether this is factually incorrect or not, it works in design theory when you're designing a circuit in my mind. If you have too many items that "draw" it lowers the amps before the end of the circuit but is high at the beginning of the circuit. Each item of resistance lowers the amperage towards the end. I don't want an argument on that just how I always designed circuits and quite successfully I might add. I've designed and made my own PCBs for mod chips for game consoles with my design and they work, so my "terminology" or "idea" of how that works could very well be incorrect but my theory does work in practice.

As @ewo1 stated on older bus circuits it is required to add a resistor for LEDs in some cases where the amperage is too high from the sender. (This isn't always the case because many times you can just drop in an LED and it works fine without issue, but sometimes if it's too high is necessary. LEDs use less current so a resistor is need before the LED to function in those scenarios if it's beyond the LEDs operating capability.

Light emitting diodes are one way check valves and is true. So my circuit above with cuts would work I believe. I did not think about using additional resistors in-line as EWO1 suggested but may actually work because it would slow the amperage on the redundant line and allow for higher amperage at the LED itself. Both are resistors in a sense so whatever resistor I use in his case would have to resist harder than the LED itself to break up the even flow rate of both lines creating more of a one way like flow in the line with the LED. I think though this would create a dimmer LED effect though than if I just cut the trace. It would remove redundancy but LEDs in my experience rarely go bad. If the cluster ever burned one out and it all goes dark, I'd know what the issue is. I think I'd just prefer to cut the traces. I'd be willing to bet that I'd never have it go out again in it's lifetime.

I would be curious to test out. EWO1s design to see if they dim much or are nearly as bright as just cutting. I may make my own test circuit and try this out down the road.

 

[nikitis]

Another possibility I thought up just now would be to do both, cut the traces and add a single resistor at the beginning of the line only. Lowering the amps throughout the whole thing like in the blinker scenario.

The amps could also be too high causing the LEDs to not work on the PCB requiring a single resistor in line at the beginning, and remove the redundant lines so it's definitely one way flow.

To upgrade the PCB into the 21st century this could be needed.

Time to create this in a lab and test!

 

[nikitis]

So I don't have a proper resistor, but I did recreate the PCB electrically and it proves the problem of LED not lighting see picture.

Here is a 12v battery. (Tiny isn't it?) It's a size A23 which is a special order battery, it is smaller than a AAAA, but gives off 12v's instead of 1.5v a AAAA gives. It also burns out REALLY fast so they don't last long at all. Obviously it's size limit's it's capacity, but it does give off as much juice as a 12v battery for a few seconds, (no where near enough to crank a bus or car, simply not enough volume obviously) but an LED can run it out in a couple of minutes and you need a new battery but it's perfect for replicating 12v's for a few seconds in testing.

Below I added the redundant line which is just like in my PCB in my gauge cluster.

I then add the DC Circuit line and get nothing. The redundant line is indeed preventing flow one way so the LED does not light up.

And clearly if I remove the redundant line, it does work fine.

And so my theory is proven on a DC line why it won't work on my gauge cluster.

Here is a picture of the A23's if anyone is curious and wants to buy one. They do cost a lot for their size, and use time is VERY VERY small. So it's only good for quick testing purposes. (Not really worth it IMO but fun nonetheless).

Now I need a proper resistor to test @ewo1 's theory which I do not have but we prove cutting the traces would at least work. Any ideas on size of a resistor I need to order? There are no resistance values given for this Amazon LED I bought so we'd be guessing.

 

[ewo1]

Start with a 100ohm 1/4 watt resistor. touch it carefully to see if it gets hot, the resistor.
you can go up in value by 100 ohms until you find one that gives you the brightness you desire.

Want to get fancy, use a potentiometer (volume dial) and you can adjust it up or down, the light brightness.

You can also use regular 9v batteries to test the LED's.

 

[Mr P]

 

[ewo1]

Good morning, What's troubling you today, hangover from the rum?
Seriously, share...

 

[ewo1]

To clarify why a resistor would be required when using an LED...

Resistors in Light Emitting Diode (LED) Circuits​

An LED (Light Emitting Diode) emits light when an electric current passes through it. The simplest circuit to power an LED is a voltage source with a resistor and an LED in series. Such a resistor is often called a ballast resistor. The ballast resistor is used to limit the current through the LED and to prevent excess current that can burn out the LED. If the voltage source is equal to the voltage drop of the LED, no resistor is required. LEDs are also available in an integrated package with the correct resistor for LED operation.​

The resistance of the ballast resistor is easy to calculate using Ohm’s law and Kirchhoff’s circuit laws. The rated LED voltage is subtracted from the voltage source, and then divided by the desired LED operating current:

Resistors for LED Circuits | Resistor Applications | Resistor Guide

Resistors in Light Emitting Diode (LED) Circuits An LED (Light Emitting Diode) emits light when an electric current passes through it. The simplest circuit to power an LED is a voltage source with…

eepower.com

 

[nikitis]

We can move on. Didn't want to turn this into a long long discussion as it's my build thread, but I think we all came to the right conclusions in the end on this. Down the road I will execute this modification to my gauge cluster and will document it well with pictures so more to look forward to then.

 

[Crlefley]

I’m still trying to figure out if you’re running your wiring on the inside of your poly-iso. But damn that was a long read!!!! Cmon boys. A lights a light when it turns on. Right?
You are all smarter than I in that way.

 

[nikitis]

@Crlefley Sort of drew up this for you. The wires will be within the same layer as the wood furring strips, and covered by drywall or plywood, whatever you use as the inner skin.

 

[Crlefley]

@Crlefley Sort of drew up this for you. The wires will be within the same layer as the wood furring strips, and covered by drywall or plywood, whatever you use as the inner skin.

That's exactly what I was imagining. I will probably do something similar to this. Especially considering im not 100% sure on a floor plan yet, but at least this way, I can adjust any provisions for electrical outlets and such. What are you planning on doing for the furring strips? Assuming the poly will somehow extend enough from the shell out to reach the lip of the strip?
I was thinking I would route channels out of the foam board (whatever insulation I decide, as ive found some iso and foam board for cheap near me also...) to keep the wiring in there.

Not sure if this all makes sense in question, but very interested to see what you come up with!

 

[nikitis]

I had an odd size at 1.3 inches. So I'll end up with 2.6 inches which will allow a little space for wiring to pass through.

I'll just use wood, maybe rough sawn wood from my saw mill as it only needs to serve to hold up the ceiling and walls.