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I have a no start, starter cranks but no start, with an engine that has been sitting for 3 years. In every other situation with our bus, whether a build-out question or an engine problem I have found helpful info and solutions on this forum. Thank you, BTW, it is great encouragement and fun to hear the stories and see the struggles and progress everyone shares. But, alas, I am stuck. So here goes with the story.
This is an early 1997 T444e so it is a “3-Box”, Allison AT-545. International/Blue Bird. It was an 11 window, 66 passenger. My wife and I live in the bus full time in the NW Houston Area. We have completed the build-out (almost-is it ever really finished), and have it parked on a commercial property where we are the nighttime security. When the bus wouldn't start one time I decided to wait a few days to get it running. Life happens...so 3 years latter…we are having to move and I must get it running. At some point, probably about a year ago (though you can tell my estimate of time is in question) field mice made a nest in the engine, battery compartment, tail pipe, etc. and for a few weeks we had a running feud with them. They never got into our living quarters and we finally eliminated them, from the bus anyway, and removed all of the nests. I could see some damaged insulation on firewall, some chewed rubber around the air intake and some wires that had been chewed but only found one that was cut all the way through.
We purchased the bus in 2015, put about 2000 miles on it and then moved to our current location. Before moving I had to replace a Cam Position Sensor that caused a no start. Otherwise, it has always started easily, with in 2 to 3 seconds of turning the key after wait-to-start light goes out. I either charge the start batteries every-so-often or have had a battery tender on them. Before the last no start, I'm guessing 3 years ago, I would start the bus every 3 or 4 months and drive it up and down our road or go get fuel to get it good and warm and then park again. So, fuel tank is full and has been since no start.
So, about 3 months ago, I tried to start the bus in preparation to move and starter turns strong but no start. I thought it was “obviously” some wire problem from the mice so I fixed a couple of questionable wires, re-cleaned any debris left from the mice, removed a couple of mud dabber nests and no start. Then I started in a list of doing things that were typical problems with a T444e in a random and haphazard manner, frantic would be a better term, since we were being pressured to move since the property we are on was being sold. I was convinced the problem was not a big deal (i.e. replace computer/s, rebuild engine, etc.) so I decided to take the time to become more educated and learn how and why the T444e works. It took some time, a lot of time, but I feel I have a pretty good handle on what goes on under the hood of this particular bus. SO, I either know what I'm talking about now or I'm just dangerous because I THINK I know what's going on.
Anyway, I think I still have a wire problem. Either a short to ground or a bad ground on some circuit somewhere. I am going to list all of the things that I have done, or that have changed since the bus last started, but there are 2 main questions I need help with:
Is it worth taking apart the whole wiring harness to visually inspect every wire? Will that help find the problem or can that only be done with a break-out box or testing each individual wire?
HERE is a list of things I have done recently in an attempt to start the bus:
Changed Engine Oil. Even though I couldn't start bus, drained oil, changed filter, drained HPOP reservoir, refilled HPOP, refilled oil though filler cap, after several attempts to start (starter running 20-30 sec) checked oil level and topped off, HPOP is still full of oil.
Changed Fuel filters, both main fuel/water separator and strainer in fuel inlet. Fuel looks and smells good. Filters filled up and have 20 psi at Schrader valve with starter running.
Replaced CPS, twice-second one from International, first one from Generic Auto Parts. I am getting RPM when starting.
Replaced IPR. From International. Connector was questionable so re-built and replaced some of the wire leading to IPR. I am getting IPR Pressure while starter running.
Replaced IPC with one from Auto Parts and then switched back to original one.
THEN, I started in with some more methodical items:
Read Flash Codes from Dash lights:
253 ECM/IDM Fuel Injection Sync Circuit-OCC Test Failure
242 ECM/IDM Fuel Demand Command Signal-OCC Test Failure
251 GPS Glow Plug Controller-OCC Test Failure
543 ECM/IDM IDM Faults not received
My conclusion after reading all of the info I could find on these is that the signals couldn't communicate, usually because of bad wires. And that the computers probably weren't bad since there weren't other codes. The Glow Plug relay is not working. The wait-to-start light has always come on when key first turned on and the bus has always started easily. I recently read the light is not necessarily timed with the actual glow plugs so I don't know if the GP have ever worked. At least I know it would not cause a no start in 80 degree weather. Unless the GP circuit has something to do with the injector circuit, other than running in the same race and bundle to the injectors, I don't think this is a cause of the no start. I have not removed the valve covers to inspect wiring but since mice could not get to that I'm leaving that until last.
So, if you're still with me, I continued. Replaced Both Start Batteries. Since every thread about hard or no start says to make sure batteries are good, I replaced them and fully charged them prior to trying to start bus. 2 Group 31 with threaded posts in parallel for 12v and 1900 cca. With Starter Cranking Voltage goes from 12.9 to 11.1 volts. Old batteries were 12.9 to 10 volts. Didn't seem to make a difference so now I have some good house batteries to play with.
Checked some of the typical areas for wiring problems. Fuses at batteries for ECM and IDM. Fuses in dash for ECM and DIAG. Wiring from battery to ECM and IDM. Wiring cluster under Oil Filter by the Transmission on Drivers side of engine. Connections at Starter. Ground and Hot leads at ECM/IDM. And I found 2 connectors with corrosion. They were the 2 large Weatherpac Style plugs with purple and white wires from battery fuses to ECM and IDM. I cleaned them, used a little dielectric grease. NO start. Removed and cleaned all of the other ground and hot leads I could see at those other locations and used dielectric grease to re-install. NO Start.
Then I found a diagnostic PDF on line from International. It's labeled EGES-125-1. It takes some deciphering because apparently they scanned it to put online. The scanner had a little trouble and made it as much of a puzzle as a tool. Not being familiar with all of the acronyms and names of things it is challenging. But, again, with help from this forum and threads that have some pictures in them I was able to identify some of the suspect wires. Basically after reviewing the wires from the EDM to the IDM that carry the suspect signals I was able to follow some of the diagrams to a conclusion of “locate short to ground in any circuit and repair” or “locate open in ground circuit and repair”. Since I don't have a wiring diagram with all wire labels I'm back to square one...find the wire.
So then I decided I needed to do a buzz test on the injectors to see if it might be that the IDM was bad after all. I figured it would be about $500 to tow the bus to the new location or $500 to tow to International and get diagnostics without repairs. So I decided to spend a little more and get the J-1708 interface similar to the Nexiq USB-2 and the free Service Maxx Software from International. I ended up with one from Diesel Laptops, it was a little cheaper than the Nexiq and they also had the software as a download. So now I have a lot more information, but still no info as to what wires to check. I can't see where, or don't understand how to get the software to do a buzz test. And I can't get it to do a “wiggle” test. If anyone has instructions for the Software that would help. I can only find instructions for the newer versions of ServiceMaxx and that says the buzz and wiggle are part of the advanced software only dealers have. Since you can't always believe anything you read I need advice on this.
HERE are some pieces of info that might be relevant:
While starter is cranking for 20 to 30 seconds at a time I get the following readings:
Battery Voltage: 11.1 Off is 12.9
Engine Oil Pressure: 39 psi
Injector Control Pressure: 600-700 for a few seconds then jumps to 3,060 psi
Engine RPM: 168-176
Fuel Pressure at Schrader Valve: 20 psi (reading from gauge not computer)
Also:
60 gallon Fuel Tank is full. Used diesel conditioner when filled tank.
Using a Scan Gauge D hooked to diagnostic port to confirm gauges, before ServiceMaxx.
Coolant level OK. Have not had any leaks or problems overheating in the past.
Transmission fluid level OK.
If you made it this far you should get a reward...Many thanks.
So in review...Tear apart wire harness? Anybody have wire and pin number scheme? Can anybody help with J-1708 ServiceMaxx Software? OR, can it be something else I'm missing just because I think the mice did it...?
This is an early 1997 T444e so it is a “3-Box”, Allison AT-545. International/Blue Bird. It was an 11 window, 66 passenger. My wife and I live in the bus full time in the NW Houston Area. We have completed the build-out (almost-is it ever really finished), and have it parked on a commercial property where we are the nighttime security. When the bus wouldn't start one time I decided to wait a few days to get it running. Life happens...so 3 years latter…we are having to move and I must get it running. At some point, probably about a year ago (though you can tell my estimate of time is in question) field mice made a nest in the engine, battery compartment, tail pipe, etc. and for a few weeks we had a running feud with them. They never got into our living quarters and we finally eliminated them, from the bus anyway, and removed all of the nests. I could see some damaged insulation on firewall, some chewed rubber around the air intake and some wires that had been chewed but only found one that was cut all the way through.
We purchased the bus in 2015, put about 2000 miles on it and then moved to our current location. Before moving I had to replace a Cam Position Sensor that caused a no start. Otherwise, it has always started easily, with in 2 to 3 seconds of turning the key after wait-to-start light goes out. I either charge the start batteries every-so-often or have had a battery tender on them. Before the last no start, I'm guessing 3 years ago, I would start the bus every 3 or 4 months and drive it up and down our road or go get fuel to get it good and warm and then park again. So, fuel tank is full and has been since no start.
So, about 3 months ago, I tried to start the bus in preparation to move and starter turns strong but no start. I thought it was “obviously” some wire problem from the mice so I fixed a couple of questionable wires, re-cleaned any debris left from the mice, removed a couple of mud dabber nests and no start. Then I started in a list of doing things that were typical problems with a T444e in a random and haphazard manner, frantic would be a better term, since we were being pressured to move since the property we are on was being sold. I was convinced the problem was not a big deal (i.e. replace computer/s, rebuild engine, etc.) so I decided to take the time to become more educated and learn how and why the T444e works. It took some time, a lot of time, but I feel I have a pretty good handle on what goes on under the hood of this particular bus. SO, I either know what I'm talking about now or I'm just dangerous because I THINK I know what's going on.
Anyway, I think I still have a wire problem. Either a short to ground or a bad ground on some circuit somewhere. I am going to list all of the things that I have done, or that have changed since the bus last started, but there are 2 main questions I need help with:
Is it worth taking apart the whole wiring harness to visually inspect every wire? Will that help find the problem or can that only be done with a break-out box or testing each individual wire?
HERE is a list of things I have done recently in an attempt to start the bus:
Changed Engine Oil. Even though I couldn't start bus, drained oil, changed filter, drained HPOP reservoir, refilled HPOP, refilled oil though filler cap, after several attempts to start (starter running 20-30 sec) checked oil level and topped off, HPOP is still full of oil.
Changed Fuel filters, both main fuel/water separator and strainer in fuel inlet. Fuel looks and smells good. Filters filled up and have 20 psi at Schrader valve with starter running.
Replaced CPS, twice-second one from International, first one from Generic Auto Parts. I am getting RPM when starting.
Replaced IPR. From International. Connector was questionable so re-built and replaced some of the wire leading to IPR. I am getting IPR Pressure while starter running.
Replaced IPC with one from Auto Parts and then switched back to original one.
THEN, I started in with some more methodical items:
Read Flash Codes from Dash lights:
253 ECM/IDM Fuel Injection Sync Circuit-OCC Test Failure
242 ECM/IDM Fuel Demand Command Signal-OCC Test Failure
251 GPS Glow Plug Controller-OCC Test Failure
543 ECM/IDM IDM Faults not received
My conclusion after reading all of the info I could find on these is that the signals couldn't communicate, usually because of bad wires. And that the computers probably weren't bad since there weren't other codes. The Glow Plug relay is not working. The wait-to-start light has always come on when key first turned on and the bus has always started easily. I recently read the light is not necessarily timed with the actual glow plugs so I don't know if the GP have ever worked. At least I know it would not cause a no start in 80 degree weather. Unless the GP circuit has something to do with the injector circuit, other than running in the same race and bundle to the injectors, I don't think this is a cause of the no start. I have not removed the valve covers to inspect wiring but since mice could not get to that I'm leaving that until last.
So, if you're still with me, I continued. Replaced Both Start Batteries. Since every thread about hard or no start says to make sure batteries are good, I replaced them and fully charged them prior to trying to start bus. 2 Group 31 with threaded posts in parallel for 12v and 1900 cca. With Starter Cranking Voltage goes from 12.9 to 11.1 volts. Old batteries were 12.9 to 10 volts. Didn't seem to make a difference so now I have some good house batteries to play with.
Checked some of the typical areas for wiring problems. Fuses at batteries for ECM and IDM. Fuses in dash for ECM and DIAG. Wiring from battery to ECM and IDM. Wiring cluster under Oil Filter by the Transmission on Drivers side of engine. Connections at Starter. Ground and Hot leads at ECM/IDM. And I found 2 connectors with corrosion. They were the 2 large Weatherpac Style plugs with purple and white wires from battery fuses to ECM and IDM. I cleaned them, used a little dielectric grease. NO start. Removed and cleaned all of the other ground and hot leads I could see at those other locations and used dielectric grease to re-install. NO Start.
Then I found a diagnostic PDF on line from International. It's labeled EGES-125-1. It takes some deciphering because apparently they scanned it to put online. The scanner had a little trouble and made it as much of a puzzle as a tool. Not being familiar with all of the acronyms and names of things it is challenging. But, again, with help from this forum and threads that have some pictures in them I was able to identify some of the suspect wires. Basically after reviewing the wires from the EDM to the IDM that carry the suspect signals I was able to follow some of the diagrams to a conclusion of “locate short to ground in any circuit and repair” or “locate open in ground circuit and repair”. Since I don't have a wiring diagram with all wire labels I'm back to square one...find the wire.
So then I decided I needed to do a buzz test on the injectors to see if it might be that the IDM was bad after all. I figured it would be about $500 to tow the bus to the new location or $500 to tow to International and get diagnostics without repairs. So I decided to spend a little more and get the J-1708 interface similar to the Nexiq USB-2 and the free Service Maxx Software from International. I ended up with one from Diesel Laptops, it was a little cheaper than the Nexiq and they also had the software as a download. So now I have a lot more information, but still no info as to what wires to check. I can't see where, or don't understand how to get the software to do a buzz test. And I can't get it to do a “wiggle” test. If anyone has instructions for the Software that would help. I can only find instructions for the newer versions of ServiceMaxx and that says the buzz and wiggle are part of the advanced software only dealers have. Since you can't always believe anything you read I need advice on this.
HERE are some pieces of info that might be relevant:
While starter is cranking for 20 to 30 seconds at a time I get the following readings:
Battery Voltage: 11.1 Off is 12.9
Engine Oil Pressure: 39 psi
Injector Control Pressure: 600-700 for a few seconds then jumps to 3,060 psi
Engine RPM: 168-176
Fuel Pressure at Schrader Valve: 20 psi (reading from gauge not computer)
Also:
60 gallon Fuel Tank is full. Used diesel conditioner when filled tank.
Using a Scan Gauge D hooked to diagnostic port to confirm gauges, before ServiceMaxx.
Coolant level OK. Have not had any leaks or problems overheating in the past.
Transmission fluid level OK.
If you made it this far you should get a reward...Many thanks.
So in review...Tear apart wire harness? Anybody have wire and pin number scheme? Can anybody help with J-1708 ServiceMaxx Software? OR, can it be something else I'm missing just because I think the mice did it...?
Last edited:
I'm so convinced it's something little and simple that I started rather hap-hazzardly. I'm over it and started keeping track of anything I did to go back to if necessary.
ALL RIGHT, EVERYONE FREEZE! THIS IS A HIJACKING! 
