Tractor ABS?

[cadillackid]

What if I just unplug the module? I don't care about having ABS brakes, I just want my transmission to work right.

Dumbass move... simply put...



but anyway the reality is if the data bus is looking for the module then it n eeds to be there otherwise you'l set codes and other things may not work right..


thats an older WABCO device.. they didnt have the scan tools online at the time.. the case was made up until about 2010 or so that reliable internet may not have been available in the field where scan tools were to be used.. ie mobile truck ..


so things were sent as files.. emailed or sometimes even downloaded but the access was given via the manufacturer.. so it may be they just got the wrong download.. likely a newer version of the module superceded the original and they sent the wrong file..



I just wonder how much troubleshooting they did.. the error code indicated a wheel speed sensor ciruit fault.. did they actually go down the pathway of testing the wheel speed sensor circuit... and actually resetting the module? I know with the international branded module on my bus that eve a wheel speed sensor code has to be manually reset despite fixing the circuit fault...



or did these guys just fire up the parts cannon and order a new module...

 

[Ozbozz57]

Gentlemen,
It is finally fixed. The tech came out to the spot outside the compound where I've been "camping", and after a couple of trips back to the shop on a golf cart to get a laptop and talk to some other guy, finally got the new WABCO module programmed. Had to drive it a bit to get the ABS light to go off, but it did. I drove it up the road and back a ways, and though I didn't go into fifth gear, (not fast enough) I did feel it go to 4th lock up.
3 days and $2875.00. I totally get why people like mechanical injection and standard shift transmissions.

 

[Ozbozz57]

The fault codes according to my manual pointed to a retarder circuit shorted to ground. I can't honestly say how much troubleshooting they did, although they said they spent 6 hours trying to find the problem, and that they had their best guy on it. Cadillac, your description of why information was sent via files, rather than internet makes sense given the time frame of 2005. I certainly didn't use the internet at all in 2005. I didn't really get my hands on a computer keyboard until about 2012.
I still feel like kind of a dinosaur with all this stuff. Points-and-condenser distributors and carburetors are my happy place.

I just want to truly thank all of you for your help. I don't take it for granted.

 

[cadillackid]

Gentlemen,
It is finally fixed. The tech came out to the spot outside the compound where I've been "camping", and after a couple of trips back to the shop on a golf cart to get a laptop and talk to some other guy, finally got the new WABCO module programmed. Had to drive it a bit to get the ABS light to go off, but it did. I drove it up the road and back a ways, and though I didn't go into fifth gear, (not fast enough) I did feel it go to 4th lock up.
3 days and $2875.00. I totally get why people like mechanical injection and standard shift transmissions.

mechanical things are usually pretty straightforward to troubleshoot.. although sometimes the computers are a help in engine diagnosis.. but the simplicity of it all makes it desirable.. albeit sometimes more difficult to make adjustments.. when I swapped out the crappy AT545 in my DEV bus for a better transmission.. I had recently done an AT545 to allison 1000 swap in my redbyrd.. and so the thought crossed my mind of doing the same, gaining overdrive in the DEV bus.. I made the decision to use an MT643 and keep the bus 100% mechanical.. owning both style busses.. a fully electronic one and a fully mechanical one i can see the advantages and disadvantages of both.. for me personally I love the electronics.. but I also grew up on it.. and learned at an early age how to work on them.. dad being an electrical engineer.. his business being electronics since the 1970s meant I had a head start on it over many... the biggest advantage being zero fear factor.. to me it was just abother thing t otroubleshoot if something breaks.. so when I got into electronic cars.. and in the early 90s starting my journey building hotrods with electronic fuel injection swapped from junkyard cars of the 80s.. it made me have no fear of electrical issues... (my first car was a emchanical diesel.. a 1980 Peugeot.. and I rebuilt the engine in dads barn when i was 20)..


I was a high-school hacker .. real life in the 80s just like the kids in the movies.. an IBM PC, couple of modems stacked on top of each other, phone cords stretched around the room and a dot matrix printer spewing out lines of what anyone other than another geek would call garbage...



in the automotive world scan tools were around long before 2005, however the updates for them often came in the form of CD's mailed to the dealerships and shops.. file downloads started becoming available to update the scanners for cars but in the field this was an issue.. in 2005, cell phone hotspots existed on the likes of Nextel Packetstream gold and USB tethered to a phone which quickly deplted its battery or would run up a heck of a bill really quick.. Wifi existed in hotels and coffee shops but car shops and mechanics tend to be a bit behind the times so they still plugged their scan tools in and loaded files sent to them...


it didnt help tat manufacturers started Spec'ing dozens of different modules.. your WABCO ABS controller on your bus might very well be different from another nearly identical bus from the same year or perhaps an 04 or 06 used different ones.. allison transmission has dozens of different part numbers for TCM's and each must match the generation and transmision type.... not to mention the program in every single allison was custom for that vehicle VIN....



I love the mechanical and electronic.. however i can easily see where for people who havent lived it their whole life that mechanical is the way to go.. for one its much easier for a laymen to get screwed when its electronic if the shoo wants to... in this case do we really know if it was the module or a simple wheel speed sensor wire short? not really.. have to trust them.. with something mechanical you bring it in for a noise that you have likely listneed to several times you have a bit of information to say wait.. that noise isnt my whole engine its just a pulley... or you can see your brakes worn down so when they say "you need new pads and the discs replaced".. yep can see they are shot...

 

[nikitis]

The problem with electronic is that it cuts off access to the average Joe.

They may even understand electrical engineering, but be cut off access to it by encryption.

We should have the right to repair anything and if requested it should be given to us and not held down. I understand they want to make money by taking away your right to repair on your own, but that's not the correct or proper way of doing business. People will still come to the dealership and they will still get business simply because many people don't have the time or desire to do it themselves, but if you do desire to do it yourself you should have full access to the designs and encryption keys to access it and make modifications yourself. You can lose warranty by doing so, that's fair for a business to impose because your modification may go out of spec and break something and we can't expect the dealerships to fix stuff we broke for free under warranty. I'm fine with them imposing detections of modifications to protect warranties for dealerships, but I should still have the right to choose to make those modifications, void my warranty, and not be locked out of my own vehicle I purchased should I so choose.

Sure Mechanical stuff is simpler to fix sometimes, electrical is harder for many but it's just a matter of taking time to learn how it works for an individual and dealers know this which is why they started underhandedly locking things up with encryption so that only they can repair it. That is Morally WRONG!

 

[cadillackid]

The problem with electronic is that it cuts off access to the average Joe.

They may even understand electrical engineering, but be cut off access to it by encryption.

We should have the right to repair anything and if requested it should be given to us and not held down. I understand they want to make money by taking away your right to repair on your own, but that's not the correct or proper way of doing business. People will still come to the dealership and they will still get business simply because many people don't have the time or desire to do it themselves, but if you do desire to do it yourself you should have full access to the designs and encryption keys to access it and make modifications yourself. You can lose warranty by doing so, that's fair for a business to impose because your modification may go out of spec and break something and we can't expect the dealerships to fix stuff we broke for free under warranty. I'm fine with them imposing detections of modifications to protect warranties for dealerships, but I should still have the right to choose to make those modifications, void my warranty, and not be locked out of my own vehicle I purchased should I so choose.

Sure Mechanical stuff is simpler to fix sometimes, electrical is harder for many but it's just a matter of taking time to learn how it works for an individual and dealers know this which is why they started underhandedly locking things up with encryption so that only they can repair it. That is Morally WRONG!

yeah the encryption and dealer-only stuff is getting out of hand... John deere lost in court over it yet nothing else has been done.. I need to read more zbout how these other manufacturers can continue down the line of dealer-only service after that ruling...


its understandable that a manufacturer could require you to purchase specialized scan tools and software.. and even receive training on it, however people like allison have just made it flat out impossible..


I think most sawe my posts about the plight of trying to get onboarded with the tools i need to build, program, and tune allison transmissions.. and its a dead-end.. if you dont work for a dealer who sponsors you.... (sponsor meaning you have to be an active employee with active access under their allison computer logins).. then you 100% cant get there...


some companies you can simply sign up to be a dealer on paper then just never push the product.. (im a dealer for fujitsu and mitsubishi HVAC equipment) but I never sell it... however I get access to all of the tech related tools and parts so i can diagnose / repair / program the systems)...


from what I understand with international is anyone thus far can still get the proper tools to diagnose / repair even the newest stuff as a non-dealer.. obviously the tools arent free but they still have a pathway for someone to do it..


freightliner appears not to... new holland appears not to.. I dont know about others like cummins or detroit...


the thing with mechanical-only is that engines havent changed a whole lot over the years in their general design.. crank,cam,pistons, rods, cylinders.. whats changed s the electronics...


if you had a garage full of tools to rebuild one mecahnical engine, many of those same tools work to rebuild a different mechanical engine, if we took mechnical diesel injection pumps, Bosch made the majority.. and used pretty much the same idea for all of them.. if you could rebuild one you could rebuuld them all..


once we go to electronic engines we got all kinds of different stuff.. HEUI and CAPS and VP44 and PIezo injectors, common rail style.. and.. every manufacturer had their own softwsre and their own scan tools to work on them...



if i look back on the early 1980's.. dad's international scout diesel had a smaller version of a Bosch A pump, a family friend with a VW diesel had a 4 cylinder version of the same pump, my peugeot diesel i acquired later (1980 model) had the same umpo as the VW rabbit.. I earned to servicde and adjust and work on those pumps.. I bought a 1990 school bus with a DT360.. and guess what its the SAME PUMP overall.. different plungers, different capacities.. with a turbo you have an aneroid, but the first time my bus lost its fuel prime I knew exactly what to do having never seen it.. because the primer was darn near the same as the scout id driven decades earlier..



look at gas cars... before electronics you had spark plugs, wires, a carb, and a dizzy.. the same timing light you used to adjust the timing on your ford worked on a friend;s chevy and mom's plymouth...



sure you had carter and rochester and holley carbs but they all acted the same.. you did the same thing.. adjusted their choke and adjusted the idle mictures and jetted for your engine... they looked different and had a few different adjustments but the skills to do one meant you could pretty much do them all..



not so nowadays... not even close...

 

[Ozbozz57]

100% right, Cadillac. There's absolutely no way I could have corrected the problem that occurred with my bus, even with a lifetime of mechanical and electrical troubleshooting.

 

[cadillackid]

100% right, Cadillac. There's absolutely no way I could have corrected the problem that occurred with my bus, even with a lifetime of mechanical and electrical troubleshooting.

possibly.. WABCO toolbox is readily available and on the older stuff they are reasonable working with people.. you mightve gotten the flash file for your ABS unit from them.



you had the code and couldve troubleshot the wheel speed sensor that the code mentioned was an error.. you'd have probably tested the sensor with a meter and seen it was good.. probably wouldve unplugged another sensor and compared..



then likely wouldve tested voltage and resistance on the controller ports and compared.. eventually deducing that the ABS controller circuit for that speed sensor was dead..



ordered a new controller, plugged it in and it wouldnt work.. someone wouldve suggested contacting wabco .. someone else here got help from wabco ..


nevertheless it wouldve been a PITA at best to get that module programmed.. or youm ightve been able to pay the dealer just to program the module.. others here have done similar with TCM's and ECMs.

 

[plumbersnitemare]

Ross do not know from checking all posts if you got it solved yet but if you have an oil leak on a rear wheel you should check the wiring to the magnetic pickup that is sending that wheels speed to the ABS

 

[Ozbozz57]

Plumbersnitemare, yes, there's an oil leak at left rear hub seal, but no problem with the wheel speed sensor. It hasn't leaked out any significant amount of the rest axle oil. I'll fix it when I get home in March.

Cadillac, the code was for a retarder circuit short to ground, not a wheel sensor. The shop chased down every potential wiring and/or sensor fault, and finally deduced it was a failure of the WABCO module. The difficulty was in getting the wrong program file at first. Once the new module was successfully programmed, the fault code cleared itself in 50 feet of driving.

The bus has been running fine. I've been to Wickenburg dispersed, Casa Grande for a few days, Buenos Aires Wildlife Refuge dispersed for a couple, and now Ajo, AZ. On to California's Imperial Valley for a couple of weeks.

I was pretty frustrated with the repair taking 3 days, and the price tag was high, but the shop did good work and fixed the problem correctly; and allowed me and my dog to "camp" outside their compound. While travelling, my resources are limited, compared to effecting a repair at leisure, at home.

 

[SkyMaster]

Dumbass move... simply put...

Clearly, you've never had ABS almost kill you.

Try an emergency stop on gravel with ABS.

 

[cadillackid]

Clearly, you've never had ABS almost kill you.

Try an emergency stop on gravel with ABS.

done it quite a bit actually.. worked great.. Lived for years in a place where the roads were tar and gravel.. was quite common to have deer jump out in front of the car.. never hit one with the ABS car.. but the crappy vacuum asisst non ABS car the boster couldnt keep up to do a proper controlled stop. and I landed in the ditch.. twice..



of course your dumbass comeback will be "you are a crappy driver" yada yada..

 

[SkyMaster]

of course your dumbass comeback will be "you are a crappy driver" yada yada..

Nice backpedaling attempt to save face, and of course ABS works perfectly for “you” … Sure.

Fellow enthusiasts visit this forum in need of information (often desperately) and are greeted with condescending remarks and profanity.

Your disrespectful reply to Ross and this comment represents extremely poor character. Be better.

I’ll give you the last word.

 

[cadillackid]

Where did i backpedal ? Show me? Yes think it’s a dumb duck move to disable safety equipment never will think different

 

[cadillackid]

It’s not disrespectful sorry.. just like I call out people who think they can drive with no defrosters or install wood stoves with no containment that could fly around ..
nothing wrong with my character..

 

[Booyah45828]

I'm glad I'm not on here much.

I miss some of you, the dialogue and interaction, the clever builds, etc. There are a lot of intelligent people here. But I don't miss the plethora of BS from newbies whose only contribution to the place is snark and questions without answers.

Skymaster, Cadillac has done more for people on this forum then you could ever dream of doing. Why you would join over a year ago, and then your only 2 posts be vitriol to him is a mystery. My guess is your a burner account or a troll.

Take care of yourself Christopher, and keep fighting the good fight.

 

[Omnibot2000]

I'm glad I'm not on here much.

I miss some of you, the dialogue and interaction, the clever builds, etc. There are a lot of intelligent people here. But I don't miss the plethora of BS from newbies whose only contribution to the place is snark and questions without answers.

Skymaster, Cadillac has done more for people on this forum then you could ever dream of doing. Why you would join over a year ago, and then your only 2 posts be vitriol to him is a mystery. My guess is your a burner account or a troll.

Take care of yourself Christopher, and keep fighting the good fight.

I have found myself not checking in on this site near as much. To much BS as well. That and seeing the same question asked multiple times.

Maybe this summer I'll have more time but work has been demanding. 122 hrs in 11 days with commute to and from work. Then got crazy sick since last Wednesday. Only reason I'm here now is me healing from the illness. Back at it tomorrow.

 

[SkyMaster]

Skymaster, Cadillac has done more for people on this forum...

Christopher might have a firm grasp on the interworking’s of our bus fleet but that doesn’t give him the right to belittle, ridicule, and disrespect fellow members.

then you could ever dream of doing.

How do you know my knowledge, experience, and skills? You must be psychic.

My guess is your a burner account or a troll.

Troll? Reverting to calling people names seems to be a trend on this forum. Burner account? That’s quite the imagine you have. Sorry to disappoint you but this is my only account.

 

[Omnibot2000]

Christopher might have a firm grasp on the interworking’s of our bus fleet but that doesn’t give him the right to belittle, ridicule, and disrespect fellow members.
t.

I've been here for a while. I'll say this. Chris will not go out and belittle or ridicule anyone for no reason at all.

What he will do is call a spade a spade when it needs to be said very directly. If it means by calling out my bullshit or someone else's when the wrong information is preached......I can respect it. He has politely called someone out and if it continues he will get in your face about it if you wanna keep repeating the same wrong information.

Respect on this forum is earned. He has earned it. I respect him for being candid to others in terms that others may not think is respectful but to be blunt. The other person deserved it. With that said as a person, Chris will still always respect the poster after.

I know I have not always been correct, I've learned from him, as he has admitted being wrong in the past and owns it....learned from it.

I will call you out, you are not doing any favors for yourself with the 3 posts that you have made have been attacking Chris and justifying yourself for it. Know body here is going to jump on your bandwagon anytime soon.

 

[cadillackid]

Spymaster how is ripping someone for disabling safety equipment ridiculing ? Then you probably will wonder why it’s so hard to get insurance .. it’s things like that which make it tough ..

The brake system on an ABS is different .. to run it broken isn’t the same as building a non ABS from the ground up ..


If a crash occurs the first thing the insurance people will look at is the safety equipment .. brakes suspension tires etc.. because insurance men love to place blame .. the busted ABS will get the blame .. neglected out of repair bus.. why should we insure these at all??