Wayward - 2000 Carpenter CT-2

[warewolff]

So we are starting the build on our new bus! She's a 2000 Carpenter CT-2, T444E, 65k miles, 5 speed Spicer transmission. Bus was only used as a training vehicle for the drivers to learn stick. The clutch has been replaced once. Here is how it looked as of 4 or 5 days ago:

Emily sitting up front..

In all her glory.

I made the mistake of telling my insurance it would be used for conversion and they wouldn't even give me a temporary commercial policy on it. I drove it home without plates or insurance from Maryland to New York, about 250 miles, in 8 hours. There is a governor set to 55mph, although I suspect she has a bit more power left as I frequently hear the engine kicking out at highway speeds. I almost peed my pants when I found myself driving on a truck-prohibited highway ... I barely cleared a bridge that was 9'9" before I was able to get off. I did get home safely though.

We've started removing the seats, cleaning, and painting ... I will upload more pictures of the progress as soon as I'm physically at a computer. I was caught off guard when I saw this, though:

It's hard to see but I have no plywood underneath my floor. Zero. There is only one thin layer of floor and it looks like it's made of some type of resistant rubber or plastic. There is no metal. All of the builds I have seen had multiple layers to strip down before hitting bottom.

Here it is from the bottom:

Realistically, it should be easier because I have nothing to rust proof. We can start laying insulation as soon as we clear out the interior and patch the holes. Are there any drawbacks to this material?

Anway, we are taking a vacation at her summer cottage this weekend so won't complete anything else until next week.

Feedback is appreciated!!

 

[Carytowncat]

Can't beat that
Low miles?

I bought a motorcycle, well a trike that wss used for training. Vintage bike with under 3k miles, is why i ask.

 

[Jolly Roger-SKO]

Warewolff be sure to check your rear gear ratio and tranny before governor adjustments.
Not trying to scare you but do your due diligence before you decide on how much to adjust your governor.
The most info. Needed Will come from your TACH. Reading's?
Others can/will correct me if I am wrong but on my build I need to add a tach. To figure out my motor to tranny to rear end before I can size my new rear gears from 6.50 to ? Without changing my governors that much because I think mine is happy where it's at so I need to help it out by changing other pieces to support it.
Just something to think about before you make a change?
Good luck.

 

[cadillackid]

plywood floors werent required in all states... and if this bus was biought as a training bus and not ever bought to run roiutes it very well may have been ordered without wood floors..

-Christopher

 

[warewolff]

Low miles?

I bought a motorcycle, well a trike that wss used for training. Vintage bike with under 3k miles, is why i ask.

Yes, 65k and about 2700 running hours with the maintenance logs to prove it. I really lucked out. Paid just over $2600 after the auction fee.

Warewolff be sure to check your rear gear ratio and tranny before governor adjustments.
Not trying to scare you but do your due diligence before you decide on how much to adjust your governor.

Jolly, I do have a tach on my model. The whole cluster was cutting out here and there as there is an electrical issue I have to track down but I don't believe I was much over 2kRPM's at 55. This is what I meant about "extra room" -- The engine would more or less cut out and stop accelerating multiple times once I hit 55. It would be especially nice to be able to accelerate down hills past 55. Do you know of a safe cruising RPM to shoot for on a T444E?

plywood floors werent required in all states... and if this bus was biought as a training bus and not ever bought to run roiutes it very well may have been ordered without wood floors..

Cadillac, will this be an issue for me? I intended to replace the plywood regardless, so the cost doesn't increase. The rubberized floor looks sturdy enough. Can you think of any drawbacks to this setup?

 

[cadillackid]

I can think of a lot of reasons why your setup is better... that plywood on a lot of busses ends up harboring moisture and causes rust to the bottom metal... in your case yank the rubber, laydown insulation and wood and be fresh..

your cluster cuttng in and out is a very common issue with those clusters... I have 2 of them!.. I fixed the one in my first bus and will have to on my second.

if you reach behind the cluster when your gauges are frozen and press on the connectors gently it most likely comes back to life... the solder joints are notoriious for cracking... also the pins get corroded over time... you can pull that out easily on a carpenter (my 1991 is a carpenter).. and try cleaning the contacts on the plugs and on the wire harness (disco your battery or trip your main disconnect first if you have one).. .. if that doesnt work you can usually take a magnifier and see in the soder joints where the connectors go to the main circuit board that the joints are cracked.. a nice fine soldering iron and a teeny weeny bit of solder on each one fixes them nicely..

I did it to my carpenter and to a friend;s bus.. and my new bus I just got has the same issue so I'll soon be doing it to that bus too...

while you have the cluster out, relamp the back-lighting.. as they will start burning out here soon.. although yours is low hours it may not..

-Christopher

 

[warewolff]

Warewolff be sure to check your rear gear ratio and tranny before governor adjustments.
Not trying to scare you but do your due diligence before you decide on how much to adjust your governor.
The most info. Needed Will come from your TACH. Reading's?
Others can/will correct me if I am wrong but on my build I need to add a tach. To figure out my motor to tranny to rear end before I can size my new rear gears from 6.50 to ? Without changing my governors that much because I think mine is happy where it's at so I need to help it out by changing other pieces to support it.
Just something to think about before you make a change?
Good luck.

Where should my engine be sitting happy? I think I averaged ~2200rpm at 55 although I'll have to double check. Additionally my temps stayed low through the whole trip..

 

[cadillackid]

2200 at 55 is standard.. i dont know what tires you have but on my carpenter I have 4.78 gears and with 11R22.5 tires i take about 2200 on average...

the T-444E has its maximum TQ / HP output at 2300 RPM but can be run safely up to 2700 (where msot factory RPM governors are set)
-Christopher

 

[warewolff]

Got all the seats out today! I started with the angle grinder a few days ago but because the frame has no rust at all we were able to get them all out fairly easily with an impact gun and an extra socket holding the nuts from underneath. On our Carpenter we used a 1/2" socket for the majority of the bolt heads/nuts and a 9/16" on a few of the bigger ones.

The impact driver from our new Milwaukee set:

Before:

After:

The pile of seats posted to the free section of Craigslist for scrap:

Sweeping up:

Emily pretending to work:

Turns out I was mistaken about the floor. It is metal, but coated with rubber. The rubber is held down by the walkway in the middle, of which we've already stripped a few screw heads, and additionally by a panel that runs along the edge of either wall. We'll be taking those off shortly as well. Hoping to finish stripping the inside and complete painting by the end of the week.

Question: In the "After" photo there's a heater behind the wheel well on the left side. We are going to be heating via a vented catalytic system with two 20# propane tanks that will be stored in the garage area. All fully ventilated. I think I'm going to scrap the stock heater. Thoughts on this?

Also, I took the measurements today. Bus is 27'6" from the back of the drivers seat to the emergency exit and 7'6" from wall to wall. 6'3" in the middle and 5'4" if you are standing right next to the window.

My back is sore from carrying all those seats away. They must be 50 pounds a piece. We'll update again by the end of the week after we complete some more work!

 

[warewolff]

Got rid of the seats today -- someone came by and picked it up for scrap. I started power washing to prepare for paint but got rained out. Then decided I'd repair my intermittent instrument cluster and couldn't figure out how to get the main board out.

I figure if this is as common an issue as I hear then I'd better start a new thread.

Repairing my International instrument cluster

Maybe one of you who has already done this can read my post on it / check out the photos and point me in the right direction?

Thanks...

 

[warewolff]

So we are still stripping the interior and prepping for paint. There were quite a few holes left from removing the stop sign, mirrors we won't use ... and the vinyl decals proved a real challenge to remove.

I power washed the entire lower exterior of the bus yesterday, everything from the windows down. There was a lot of gunk that I just couldn't remove scrubbing. One added benefit to doing this was that I was able to completely remove all of the vinyl lettering and reflective tape. It left a lot of stubborn and sticky layer underneath, though.

We ended up using an adhesive remover from Autozone to remove all of the residue and peeled it off with a spackle knife. It all looked clean after about an hours worth of work.

We continued prepping with a 5" orbital sander from Harbor Freight and used both 110 and 200 grit sand paper depending on the area.

Meanwhile, I was having a tough time removing some of the stripped/stuck screws to get the rubber up inside. I ended up taking out the angle grinder with a sanding pad and was able to get most of them out. I'm still having a little trouble removing the stripped screws from the walkway itself and have resorted to grinding right down to the rubber to remove them. It's been time-consuming, though.

We did run into some snags.

First, while grinding the rivets off the wall, I found a beautiful fiberglass layer underneath. It looks to be in perfect condition:

Additionally, that piece of sheet metal in the picture wraps underneath the window and underneath the exterior of the bus. The only way to remove it is to cut it out. I already fouled up the caulking on the bottom frame of the rear two windows by trying to tear it out and can see light seeping through from the outside. I'll have to repair that. For now, though, I'm at a total loss.

After seeing how clean it looks, it seems like an awful lot of work to remove perfectly good insulation only to foul up the windows in the process. I'm considering closing my work up and leaving all the insulation as it is. I'd then add ANOTHER layer of foam insulation over it, framed in wood. It would shave off the width of our bus from 7'6" to ~7' even, but I'd imagine it'd be really cozy inside. Additionally, it will give us a small windowsill (and a nice frame to put in temporary window insulation over the winter). Thoughts on this?

Lastly, I finally got that pesky heater loose in the back. When I started to remove one of the hoses it looks to be filled with engine coolant. What is the proper way to get this thing out and seal it off correctly?

A big thank you to all for the feedback. What are everyone's thoughts on leaving the wall the way it is? Most of the builds I see remove the walls completely but we got lucky with a truly rust-free and mold-free bus...

 

[Oldmopar]

For the walls it depends on the climate you intend on parking in and if you are going full time or like us, as a weekend RV. The biggest heat loss is going to be out the windows. Lots of single pane glass with aluminum frames. The heat is going to be sucked out through those more than anything else in the bus. So, if you are keeping the windows, the walls will be just fine. Adding some to the inside should work, that is my plan.
Some on here go all out, pull the ceiling, walls, floor, etc. and spray in foam, add RV double pane windows and really make it insulated. All good things. Others don't and just overcome the heat loss with more BTUs. Your budget, location, and plans will determine what you need to do. But, I would say if you don't plan to remove the windows and replace with something a lot better, adding a ton of insulation other places will have some, but limited effect.
As for the heater, follow the hoses to the front of the bus where they hook to the front heater. You can by-pass then there. Just make sure that you keep the coolant flowing in a loop, in to the front heater and then back out. I pulled the hose going to the rear heaters and routed it into the front heater. It will be easy once you get a good look at the front heater.

 

[AlleyCat67]

That one section of insulation did look really good.... but just because it was good there doesn't mean it will be the same everywhere.

I would open it all up and check it... if it's all good there's no reason not to just leave it in place... screw the sheet metal back into place and proceed with your plan to frame over it. But if you find a bad section, you'll want to rip that out and replace it... foam board, spray fill, what have you.

 

[cadillackid]

the hoses go to the bergstrom heater drive console.. you SHOULD be able to get them cut loose there.. your bus will fill very quickly with coolant as all the heaters are full of it... I had drained my coolant system already because i knew i was gutting out the driver heaters.. in your case im not sure the best way to go to keep from flooding out the bus with coolant.. you cal close the valves but theres still a lot of coolant inside the front units...

as for the rear hoses.. there will be hose clamps right at the out let of the driver heater.. you can undo those.. or you can cut the lines there and cap the hoses.. im not sure what your plans are for rear heat on the road.. whether you will want to put that unit back in or not..

-Christopher

 

[warewolff]

So we've had a few very long days. We've almost completed sanding the exterior, the coolant fed interior heating units are out ( front and back ), and all of the rubber floor is finally up. The rubber floor was glued down pretty tight and we had a tough time removing it piece by piece with a chisel. I've begun to sand and polish the floor with my angle grinder before we plug the holes and lay some paint. The floor is immaculate minus the hardened glue. Very little rust.

Bus engine received a tune up! Took just shy of 5 gallons of oil and 4.5 gallons of coolant. Both were more work than I anticipated but the coolant flush was especially rough as the lowest hose was in a really inaccessible spot. I also replaced the air filter. The old one was spent.

My instrument cluster is almost put back together and ready for reinstallation ... however, after changing all my fluids today I gave the bus a start only to find an annoying beeping coming from the interior, under the dash. It's different from the emergency door/hatch buzzing ... similar to the reverse beep. I double checked my stick to make sure I was in neutral, and I was, so it's not that. I am hoping it's just because my instrument cluster is still out and not a warning of something dire, like a low oil pressure warning. In any case, I can't look at the cluster to double check ...Thoughts?

Lastly, I have to drain a bit of oil, as I'm showing I'm about 2 quarts over filled. When I did check the levels, however, the brand new oil is already black. I did let let the pan drain overnight so I don't know why it already looks so dirty. Should I be worried?

I'll update again with pictures tomorrow... as always thanks for everybody's input.

 

[TN Redneck]

Depending on the trans, a 7.3, with a ZF S5-47 trans will do about 70 at 2700 rpm. This is also depending on rear ratio. Is yours turbo? You can go with a tuner chip, just need to rid yourself of that governor. You'll be more happy with hill power...

 

[slaughridge85]

It's a diesel. No matter what you do the fresh oil will always look black as soon as it goes into the engine. Nothing to worry about.

 

[cadillackid]

Depending on the trans, a 7.3, with a ZF S5-47 trans will do about 70 at 2700 rpm. This is also depending on rear ratio. Is yours turbo? You can go with a tuner chip, just need to rid yourself of that governor. You'll be more happy with hill power...

I have yet to find a Tuner for a T-444E... the Computers are NOT the same as a ford Powerstroke 7.3... so Powerstroke tuners and chips dont work unless the T-444E is a PRE-1997 then alot of the stuff was the same... as the computers were the same...

-Christopher

 

[slaughridge85]

I have yet to find a Tuner for a T-444E... the Computers are NOT the same as a ford Powerstroke 7.3... so Powerstroke tuners and chips dont work unless the T-444E is a PRE-1997 then alot of the stuff was the same... as the computers were the same...

-Christopher

Yep, pretty much every "chip" out there is for the ford version computer control module. They can be made to work on an international but its a pretty huge pain in the ass from what I've read... Don't worry so much about how fast you're going up and down hills. Just do it safely and you'll get there no problem. Tampering with the governer on these engines is a sure way to premature destruction.

 

[warewolff]

Christopher, were you serious a few months ago when you offered to lend me the computer for changing the speed limiter? I am getting close to driving away now and could use it. I'll put a hefty deposit down if you like.

So it's been a long time since I've posted but we have been working hard and making a lot of progress. I will upload all the photos in the next few days. The entire exterior of the bus is sanded, bondo'd, and primed for fresh paint. I have a buddy who professionally paints cars and is going to allow me to use his shop when I'm ready.

I finished all the mechanical work. The engine is all tuned up and the gauge cluster is rebuilt. I'm happy to say it's working well. I went through every wire feeding into the board and tossed everything I wasn't using. Tossed the old heaters, strobe stuff, emergency alarms, heated mirrors that I didn't use, stop sign relays, et cetera. We sanded the floor down to almost a polish and laid down rustoleum, followed by 2" foam, followed by 3/4" tongue and groove osb, followed by a really pretty and heavy duty laminate floor that my lady picked out.

The steel came in last week and we've since skinned 16 of the 21 original windows. I ordered 18 gauge but lucked out and received 16 for the same price. It is heavy duty. I applied it with 1" 3M VHB tape and it went up real smooth. Picked up some self drilling bolts and tacked it in a few times for added peace of mind but the thing is built like a tank. We got rid of the leaky emergency exit too, as well as some various roof stuff we didn't need, and closed everything off. We're just about ready to continue insulating the walls, running cast iron propane line, 1200 wall outlets ... all that good stuff. We are keeping the original bus lighting and replacing it with LED bulbs to run on a separate 12v system.

The fridge came today. Estimated 270kW yearly. I am very happy. All in all its coming out real nice and we're more or less on schedule.

One concern though, for all you guys and gals with the 444. I hve never operated it in cold weather but noticed that 1) it sometimes idles rough on a cold winter start for a few seconds and 2) after 5 minutes or so I hear a loud WHOOOOSH sound similar to an air leak. I gave the engine a pretty good inspection and don't see anything. I haven't had the balls to let it go and see if it goes away on its own. Any ideas? The engine only has 65k miles.