Welding on the frame.

I believe nearly all frames made in the last 40 years or as are indeed heat treated.
My Ford has a double frame service manual says it is If I remember correctly. I did indeed weld on it. In fact I lengthened it about 5 feet.
(All of my added length and weld was behind the rear axle.)
Fact is these frames are designed and built to twist.
This is why the OEMs are quite serious about “no drilling holes on Flanges”

Are you of the opinion that as long as only:

* the middle third of the vertical web of a frame rail, not a flange or top or bottom third of the vertical area, is drilled through,
* and with a hole for no more than a 1/2" bolt
* and no bolt holes closer than 2" from each other
* and ideally only on the forward and rear ends of rails away from the axles
* definitely never on top of or within a foot or so of suspension attachments

That with those criteria respected a hitch or other hardware can generally be safely mounted as long as the holding power of the bolts (Grade 8 or better throughout) involved with a safety factor of like 4 is maintained?
 
Are you of the opinion that as long as only: * the middle third of the vertical web of a frame rail, not a flange or top or bottom third of the vertical area, is drilled through, * and with a hole for no more than a 1/2" bolt * and no bolt holes closer than 2" from each other * and ideally only on the forward and rear ends of rails away from the axles * definitely never on top of or within a foot or so of suspension attachments That with those criteria respected a hitch or other hardware can generally be safely mounted as long as the holding power of the bolts (Grade 8 or better throughout) involved with a safety factor of like 4 is maintained?

Yes I’d agree those are very good guidelines.
 
If you're adding a hitch to the tail end of the frame welding isn't going to make a big difference. I took the tow hooks off and the generic/universal hitch I bought accidently lined up to with three of six holes that were in the hitch so I bolted it in the three holes and then welded it. As was mentioned earlier in this thread you should disconnect your batteries to protect any electronic equipment on board but welding a hitch to the tail end of a frame really isn't a problem. Welding between the axles on a heat treated frame, which all of them are, can create problems if you don't know what you're doing.
 
I welded on my frame and had no problems, was careful not to get things too hot.
Used E7018 for the filler metal and after 17 years no problems.
My bus is a 1992 TC2000 model, not any electronics to worry about.
As a welder I would rather weld than drill.
 
The spacing of the bolt holes don't matter so much as long as the bolt thickness matches the hole size and use Washers.

i.e. Don't drill a 1/2 inch hole and use a 3/8 bolt. Use a 1/2 bolt.

Also washers help increase the strength of the Frame when the bolt is tightened against them. It'll be fine if the holes are closer. I would ensure you had enough space for each bolt to have a washer, and the washers not overlap.

It's good to use a wider washer too, like 1 Centimeter wide on one side of the washer at least.

Also 1dmpo is correct. It's okay to weld on the end of the frame, just ensure you are using a high amp welder to get that penetration as the C Channel is thick and you're gonna need good penetration for the weight you'll be pulling. I wouldn't trust a 110v welder for the frame welding. Use a 220v cranked up.

Our 110v welders can do most tasks on the bus like roof raises etc, but that's all thin metal. C-Channels are pretty thick.
 
The spacing of the bolt holes don't matter so much as long as the bolt thickness matches the hole size and use Washers.

Also washers help increase the strength of the Frame when the bolt is tightened against them.
These two statements put together.....so many holes drilled very close together could practically cut a frame in to two pieces, yet bolting them back together with washers would be stronger than before?


Correct those erroneous statements, please.


EDITED LATER to fix MY error. If these bolts are clamping a layer of steel (like a hitch) I can see how that would be stronger.

Apologies for MY error.
 
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His statement is not totally erroneous..
you make the assumption of a potential crack.... there is NO crack!

Bolting them back together and supporting/reinforcing with washers or other strong component has been proven time and time again to provide additional support and strength.

so again, I do not see it as erroneous...it really all depends on the particular situation and/or if it is the best course of action for each and every particular situation.

Last time I corrected myself, I believe it might be your turn.

No one here is perfect but at least we all try to help each other out...
 
I'm reconsidering....

First, I'm NOT assuming a crack. I'm pointing out that if hole spacing does not matter, holes could be so close together as to practically cut the frame in two.

Do you have a link to back your claim of "reinforcing with washers or....component has been proven...to provide additional....strength"?

Do you mean additional from the weakened condition, or stronger than originally?

The second statement would mean that a frame full of holes that were filled with bolts and washers would be stronger than original. I'm not buying that without proof.
 
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These two statements put together.....so many holes drilled very close together could practically cut a frame in to two pieces, yet bolting them back together with washers would be stronger than before?


Correct those erroneous statements, please.
Who's talking about cracks anyway? Don't add cracks to your metal. If you see cracks in your metal then of course common sense would dictate don't install it until you've replaced it.

When you are standing there for hours drilling holes you're gonna notice any major cracks, and if the crack is not visible, well that's what the washer is for to add surface tension so the bolt isn't pushing against the walls of the hole.

Naw, I stand by what I said. I've installed many many hitches, and never had such an issue. It's completely reasonably safe to do for up to 10k lbs of hauling. Any more than that, then there's additional reinforcement required beyond grade 8 bolts and washers.

As stated before don't let your washers overlap each other because then it's not really supporting the bolts position and making use of that extra surface tension you're bolted onto. Use the correct bolt size for the hole, and a washer, and torque spec it hard, it ain't going anywhere.

It's an industry standard that if washers are used especially beefy ones, it's a reinforcement. Cracks aren't as likely to even form if used because it can take off some of the stress off of the bolt and C Channel. I did stress using a washer. A wide washer will ensure enough spacing. Of course I'm not talking about putting the bolts right next to each other so close they touch.

If you use really wide washers between two bolts it's going to be nearly 2 inches apart anyway. There's no way in **** it's gonna break.
 
I'm reconsidering....

First, I'm NOT assuming a crack. I'm pointing out that if hole spacing does not matter, holes could be so close together as to practically cut the frame in two.

Do you have a link to back your claim of "reinforcing with washers or....component has been proven...to provide additional....strength"?

Do you mean additional from the weakened condition, or stronger than originally?

The second statement would mean that a frame full of holes that were filled with bolts and washers would be stronger than original. I'm not buying that without proof.


I'm not spinning this around with a bunch of details on "what if" scenarios......my comments were general in nature, not specific to ONE issue or concern.


I said it quite clearly....
it really all depends on the particular situation and/or if it is the best course of action for each and every particular situation.

You want to spin it around, be my guest...


Source: -

Hitch Install

  • When installing the hitch, be sure to use the reinforcing plates supplied with the hitch where appropriate in order to reinforce the frame and spread the load to the frame edges.


Hitch Hardware​


Carriage Bolt
Wrench Washer

Carriage Bolts and Wrench Washers (Reinforcing Plates):​

Many hitches use carriage bolts and special washer blocks or plates, which act as a wrench inside a boxed-in section of the frame to hold the bolt during tightening. The plates also help reinforce the frame by spreading the load to the frame edges.

Chassis – Best Practices PAGE

uploaded doc
Genesis service manual - FRAME
 

Attachments

  • FRAME (3).pdf
    488.7 KB · Views: 5
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OK.
as a bus owner and a commercial industrial welder of over 30 years i can say that i have welded on heat treated with no problems but using the correct technique. look up the technique for welding corten steel.
thats not how i do it but i have not had any problems with my way.
before i was certified i was welding at 13-15 years old fixing farm equipment in east texas as a kid
got out of the marines and got certified as a universal welder in the early 90's.
i mainly weld pipe for a living but have welded on many pieces of construction equipment like for example A case 300 and many others a hydraulic lift cylinder shaft for a 12000 pound lift capacity rough terrain fork lift and many other things with high strength steel.
to weld on a vehicle with electronics you have to disconnect the ECM,PCM,TCM,BCM,BATTERY, and whatever else you might have thats important.
my wifes bus is an 04 express and i just drilled the chassis for the hitch.
but i did tack the nuts on.
dont use a mig welder unless you have a gap and know how to use it? it does not have the penetration to dig into the base metals.
use a stick machine.
bus chassis not that big of deal but anything 3/8" thick or more i like to pre heat even with stick make your weld and spray it with oil in a spray bottle while its hot and depending on what it is i will use the torch to heat the areas up again to a minimum of cherry red to white and spray it again.
there are certain steels that you do not weld on period especially the pre stressed trailers you see behind road tractors they are high tensile strength.
on a side note my wifes little bus already had chassis from collins bus but the previous owner had a hitch welded on from a friend and fried the ECM.
i didnt like the welds so i cut it off and cleaned everything and bolted my own on.
a bottle jack or floor jack to back up your drill while putting pressure behind the drill and a side handle on the drill and some good bits will help make the job less painful.
yes i am talking about drilling into the bottom flanges and using a jack behind your drill to provide the pressure.
the right nuts,bolts,washers, spacers or whatever your application needs.
i tack welded mine for my piece of mind because my wife uses it to travel the country as a LAB TECH and hauls here car on a trailer so i didnt want that phone call from misery or arizona or vermont? you gat the idea.
if you hire a stick welder and he doesnt show up with 60?? rods and 70?? rods then dont let him do it the 60 rods are for penetration and 70 rods are to make it look pretty and add some strength.
 
I guess there are two ways to look at this. As I read the statements that I question, only a bolt and washer (and nut and another washer) was used. However, if that's clamping a layer of steel (like a hitch), I can see how that would and strength.

Apologies for my accusations of error.
 
If that was a self correction, I thank you....
spirited discussion is always welcome.....

Me.. I am here to learn and share not argue...

So tell me, do you have a bus too, or thinking of getting one?
 
flat washers will spread the load but lock washers will do there job.
now go ahead and complain about lock washers on flat washers that does not work on the nut side it only locks the flat washer to the lock washer? what locks the nut to the bolt?
not a damn thing.
tack weld or cotter pin.
 
I don't know much about "Nord strom" lock washers, but a typical lock washer is a way to add reverse tension to the nut to put pressure on it to help it not unscrew over time. These are perfectly fine to use as well as it can add additional tension to both the washer and the nut.

This tension is like a torque. With a Grade 8 metal you can tork them pretty hard without stripping so where there's so much tension on the threads they aren't very likely to come loose. (Though not impossible) but you can you also add thread locker, or use a nylon nut, or both.

Torque ratings can be found here:
Torque Ratings for Bolts Grade 5 and 8

On the site for Grade 8 it recommends 80 to 106 Ft lbs. If you measure with a torque wrench and know you hit those specs when torquing it's not likely to come off.
 
Interesting. Never seen a Nord-lock washer before. I guess it works by torquing it into a stepped shaped imprint on the metal sidewall?
 

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