What have I done? Bought a Maxxforce 7

[Jeffr55]

So I will admit, I jumped into a purchase before doing sufficient research. I found a bus very close to home which looked like a good deal and purchased before fully researching it.

What I got: 2013 International PB10500, 168k miles, 53 passenger, little to no rust, overall good shape physically, good tires, but intermittent issue with fuel pressure (I’m guessing it’s the high pressure pump wiring harness but haven’t dug into yet), and as the title says, it has the maxxforce 7 engine.

My intended use is to convert to camper for maybe a handful of trips each year, either locally or in the mountains.

Now that I understand this engines reputation, I see a few options:
1. spend the time and effort to convert this one and do what I can to improve the probability the engine holds out for us for how little we will be using it.
2. Part out or send to scrap yard and probably recover what I’ve invested in it so far.
3. Since the structure is in great shape, start looking for a totaled truck with a Cummins or DT466 which I could put in this bus.

I’m not intimidated by projects, so the idea of looking for a donor engine is appealing to me, and that way I can start working on the conversion now and worry about engine later, but if there is something I’m overlooking when considering doing a power plant swap, I’d rather figure that out sooner than later.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any guidance.

 

[cadillackid]

you'll likely need to obtain a nexiq device and the god-mode service-maxx .. then scan it... the 2013 Maxxforce in my opinion was better than the first couple years.. they werent cracking pistons like the originals. but the turbos and pumps were still an issue..


the bigger thing I dislike about most MF7 equipped busses is if they habe hydraulic brakes.. the WABCO brake controller is a real achilles heal.. or can be anyway..



an engine swap for an engine that was never sold in that frame is a big undertaking.. way more than you'll be running it..



Not all Maxxforce 7s died.. there are still many in service... there were a high percentage of failures compared to other engines but alot run fine.. I have zero idea what your fuel pressure is but solve that and it may last for many years.. 2013 is a little new for a school to get rid of so it may be that the bus went to several shops that either couldnt solve the fuel pressire issue or found it to be a large expense..



maybe with the mileage and the issue they retired it..

 

[Jeffr55]

Thanks I’ll start looking into getting a scanner and see what I can find out. I also have a lead on figuring out why the district retired the bus, sounds like it’s what you were thinking, that they got a quote for the repairs and it was more than they were willing to spend to keep it.

I hadn’t heard about the brake controller being an issue before, so I’ll start researching that as well.

Do you have any resources I could look into to figure out which engines options were available in this frame?

 

[cadillackid]

the only engines offered was the Maxxforce 7 in the CE200.. or the Maxxforce DT offered in the CE300.. at some point IC just started calling them all 'IC CE'.. later on the cummins 6.7 was offered.. that was after the Maxxforce engines were discontinued.. there was(is?) a 6.7 retrofit kit (obviously expensive) sold to replace dead MF engines in these busses..


to put a non electronic engine in one of these busses would be a real challenge.. youd have to integrate to brake controller (non issue if you have non ABS air brakes).. and youd have to integrate to the allison transmission.. (these have SEM enabled so youd need a new TCM or TCM program).. then of course anythign else that works through the BCM (body controller) would have to be downgraded to standard switch and wire... at that point id be inclined to either fix the bus and run it or get another one... swapping engines and transmissions around in older busses is pretty easy.. the newer you get the more systems that rely on the CAN bus computer networks..

 

[kromboy]

Does an engine swap make any financial sense when the bus hasn't been converted though? I would imagine just buying another used bus with the right drivetrain would be cheaper than swapping in a used engine.

Probably cheaper to take the loss and sell the bus for what you can get, then buying the right bus when the opportunity comes along.

 

[Albatross]

Does an engine swap make any financial sense when the bus hasn't been converted though? I would imagine just buying another used bus with the right drivetrain would be cheaper than swapping in a used engine.

Probably cheaper to take the loss and sell the bus for what you can get, then buying the right bus when the opportunity comes along.

I would say that depends on the condition of the bus.



If you found a bus from someplace like arizona/nevada that is nearly-pristine and has never seen salt or enough moisture to seriously warrant any kind of rust threat, then I would probably say keep that skin, since it's not likely that anything else you're going to find is that clean. But if it's a skoolie from Ohio or someplace like that, then screw it, it's probably half rusted-out anyways. Even if that means that you've got to figure out how to store it for a bit and/or pay for the power-train swap.

 

[Bearmtnmartin]

Unless you are doing a round world trip then just run it. And if you are worried about it plugging up with soot then delete it. It costs maybe $1500. Seems a little premature to part out a perfectly good bus.

 

[Omnibot2000]

Unless you are doing a round world trip then just run it. And if you are worried about it plugging up with soot then delete it. It costs maybe $1500. Seems a little premature to part out a perfectly good bus.

Only thing is if he is on that one trip and the engine dies he is stuck with probably a very expensive fuel related repair, a tow bill and the expense with labour in converting the thing. Add in a ruined vacation trip which for me is priceless.

We recently had a 2013 Maxforce 7, had 7200 hrs on the engine. Typical stop and go service life. Engine plumb wore out. Quoted $46,000 for a rebuilt engine with labor. The engines are simply disgusting in my opinion.

There is one of those buses up for sale local to me asking $8000. Been up for sale for 6 months. I see any other 2008-2010 bus go for sale for $8000 and is gone in 30 days If a buss comes with a t444e or pre emission dt466 They are gone in a week for around $6500 if it has an A2000. I see them sit alot longer if it's standard or a 545 trans. If I watch the auctions, the T444e and Dt466 pre maxforce will sell higher then any other engine.... Including maxforce, Mercedes and Cat. I have not seen any Cummins yet.

Frankly if it was me, I would sell it. Unless the body is in pristine shape and want to sink the money into the engine. That is up to the OP. My opinion is get it looked at or find out the problem and see how much it is to repair. Letting things go can cascade and cause more repairs down the line and cost more.

FYI, all the prices are Canadian.

 

[cadillackid]

Only thing is if he is on that one trip and the engine dies he is stuck with probably a very expensive fuel related repair, a tow bill and the expense with labour in converting the thing. Add in a ruined vacation trip which for me is priceless.

We recently had a 2013 Maxforce 7, had 7200 hrs on the engine. Typical stop and go service life. Engine plumb wore out. Quoted $46,000 for a rebuilt engine with labor. The engines are simply disgusting in my opinion.

There is one of those buses up for sale local to me asking $8000. Been up for sale for 6 months. I see any other 2008-2010 bus go for sale for $8000 and is gone in 30 days If a buss comes with a t444e or pre emission dt466 They are gone in a week for around $6500 if it has an A2000. I see them sit alot longer if it's standard or a 545 trans. If I watch the auctions, the T444e and Dt466 pre maxforce will sell higher then any other engine.... Including maxforce, Mercedes and Cat. I have not seen any Cummins yet.

Frankly if it was me, I would sell it. Unless the body is in pristine shape and want to sink the money into the engine. That is up to the OP. My opinion is get it looked at or find out the problem and see how much it is to repair. Letting things go can cascade and cause more repairs down the line and cost more.

FYI, all the prices are Canadian.

I myself would probably buy a Maxxforce if it was in perfect running order and cheap.. I likely wouldnt have bought this one knowing it has an issue..

 

[Omnibot2000]

I myself would probably buy a Maxxforce if it was in perfect running order and cheap.. I likely wouldnt have bought this one knowing it has an issue..

Perfect running order is key and then delete it.

 

[Jeffr55]

Unless you are doing a round world trip then just run it. And if you are worried about it plugging up with soot then delete it. It costs maybe $1500. Seems a little premature to part out a perfectly good bus.

Any recommendations of where to go for this? I’ve heard you have to send the ecm out to get reprogrammed and then find blank off plates or make them on your own.

 

[Jeffr55]

Perfect running order is key and then delete it.

I got it for well less than two grand, so was a tough price to pass up even with issues. It did drive home 20 miles without a problem and fires up every time I go start it. So I’m holding out hope I can do some work on it without breaking the bank to make it reliable enough for our purposes.

 

[Omnibot2000]

I got it for well less than two grand, so was a tough price to pass up even with issues. It did drive home 20 miles without a problem and fires up every time I go start it. So I’m holding out hope I can do some work on it without breaking the bank to make it reliable enough for our purposes.

I mean for $2000, scan it, see what it needs and price it out.

Buying OEM parts from Navistar is disgustingly expensive and nearly cost prohibitive.

With that, the price you paid is crazy cheap and you cant really go wrong. You could part it out and make your money back probably and scrap the rest.

Anything for $2000 near me is some 1985 bus that does not run

 

[cadillackid]

I mean for $2000, scan it, see what it needs and price it out.

Buying OEM parts from Navistar is disgustingly expensive and nearly cost prohibitive.

With that, the price you paid is crazy cheap and you cant really go wrong. You could part it out and make your money back probably and scrap the rest.

Anything for $2000 near me is some 1985 bus that does not run

If it does keep the Allison , harness, tcm .. sell the engine ECM and BCM .. people always have bad BCM . If the wabco is still good in it that’s worth big bucks .

If the bus has a webasto and or AC.. keep that ..

If the dpf is good..

Then you can buy an older bus cheap with an 545 and have your Allison swap to upgrade already..,

 

[Jeffr55]

If it does keep the Allison , harness, tcm .. sell the engine ECM and BCM .. people always have bad BCM . If the wabco is still good in it that’s worth big bucks .

If the bus has a webasto and or AC.. keep that ..

If the dpf is good..

Then you can buy an older bus cheap with an 545 and have your Allison swap to upgrade already..,

No AC… but brakes do work and has Allison that seems to be in real good shape.

What bus models would have engine which would be simple to put in this frame? Also assuming I’m going to have to switch out brake systems too if I get rid of the BCM, so would need donor to have engine and brakes I could use.

 

[cadillackid]

if the maxxforce dies in that frame you have a ton of work to do to swap it..


for one, brakes are engineered.. you dont just swap a standard power booster onto the brake lines and call it a day... brakes are engineered from the discs and pads all the way to the pedal... if you can engineer them yourself then you can possibly find suitable parts.. this is one of the issues with doing various swaps in modern busses as everythng has become integrated... in an older bus it was easy if tyou wantd a different engine or transmission, you worked out the physicals of making one fit and you just did it.. it was easy to deal with things like how would your route the fuel lines and exhaust and space the fan or radiator in or out.. etc..


on a modern bus all the systems become integrated so if you take any one out you have to somehow fill the void...



the only engines sold in that year CE were the maxxforce 7 and the Maxxforce DT.



in my opinion if that bus blows up you either fix it or scrap it and get another one.. or essentially put so uch work into making that frame something ekse that you've put 3X the money and effort into it that you would have finding an lder southern bus with minimal rust..


I dont know how prevalent or serious the fueling issue is on it currently.. but sometimes the pathway of putting a couple grand into the existing bus to make it run right end up being the path of least resistance..



this oathway can be especially effective if you have what seems like a good diagnoss already in the info you received from buying the bus.. you can look for ues or reman parts, make the repair and drive it..


like I mentioned here (or maybe it was someplace else).. whike there was an industry unacceptable number of failures with Maxxforce 7 engines, there are stilla bundle of them out there.. mechanics that work in shops and those who run school bus fleets and others of us who have experienced issues will always state its terrible, throw it away and move on, because its something they have seen in their shops way more than other drivetrains, however they dont see every single one of them..


my own city still has plenty of maxxforce school busses still on routes every day.. yes its easy to see the row of shame at the local IH dealer of broken Columbus city schools busses by the fence but the reality is there are still hundreds in this city alone still running routes every day..


if this were MY bus and it checked off all the boxes but had a specific issue..
I would probably find out what was previously diagnosed on it and start there..


if its the injection pump then maybe you get a second opinion..


if you want to delve into the computers yourself then buy a Nexiq clone and obtain the God-mode servicemaxx from various places including a few here.. and run the computer.. see what it says... considering that nost busses from the late 90s on have electronic engines, all is not lost by buying the nexiq clone as that hardware device will work with many other engines and busses with the various softwares ..



if it comes down to beeding a couple grand worth of parts and the bus seems otherwise healthy then you learn to replace said parts and enjoy your bus.. esp your use case that isnt trekking remote areas of the country for weeks at a time...



the big issues of failure come into play when people are either full-timing so the bus is their only house, or if trekking remote areas where tow rigs and mechanics shops and parts arent easy to find... if you arent doingthat then fix the bus and have a great lake-rig to enjoy.. I would suggest driving any modern bus fairly regulary and fully warmed up.. ie every month take it on an hour-long drive at 55 or faster... this ensures your batteries stay up, your fuel stays fresh.. (modern busses are more prone to issues with old fuel) and you are warming it up enough to keep the DPF clean (unless you delete it)... deleting is frowned upon by the EPA so if you live in a state (or may live) (or may travel to) states that require inspections.. or the west coast where they are esp finicky about diesels anyway then I wouldnt suggest deleting it..if you live in a state like mine (where anything with wheels gets registered) and dont plan travel to the coasts you would possibly be fine deleting.

 

[#1FordFan]

My vote is to put some effort into the orig engine till you can’t go any further.
I think engine swaps are simple AS LONG AS you use all mounts , crossmembers from the donor vehicle.

 

[Jeffr55]

Thanks, that helps me lean more towards seeing what I can do to either fix this, or just scrap and find something else.

 

[Jeffr55]

Info from shop

I was able to get a hold of the shop that had diagnosed the bus for the district. He said it was throwing a 3055-15 or -17 code. He drove the bus with the scanner plugged in and watched the fuel pressure and the code would come in with the actual fuel pressure not far off from the fuel pressure call. He also said the code will come in if you start the bus and leave on high idle for 20-30 minutes. But he would see the actual pressure jumping around quite a bit. The bus would smoke and stutter when going up hills. The bus does not burn oil. He was thinking it was getting air sucked in with the fuel and put in clear fuel lines, but never saw any air getting pulled in with the fuel. He did not do any other diagnosing or replace any parts. He hasn't sent in any oil for analysis. He quoted replacing the high pressure pump, injectors, and DPF to the district and they decided to put it up for auction.

From what research I've done, I found a iKNow paper on the 3055 code which says there were know issues with the original fuel pump wiring harness. From the symptoms, it seems that since the issues are so predictable, it would be a mechanical issue instead of electrical. But since it seems the wiring harness has issues with higher temperatures, that could still be the problem. The wiring harness replacement kit is about $500, but a new set of injectors is around $2k and new fuel pump is about $2k also. I'm not even going to look at replacing DPF until the fueling issues are solved, but it needs replaced or removed as well after all the smoke that's been sent to it.

Even though it's only been 1400 miles since last oil change, I'm going to send oil sample to Blackstone and see what they say. I'm leaning towards replacing the wiring harness first and see what that does. It seems like it would need to be done anyway, is the cheapest place to start, and if the ECM is getting false fuel pressure values, it would make sense that it's overfueling and causing the power and smoking issues.

Am I thinking about this correctly? Is there anything else I can do to narrow down the issue to the harness, pump, or injectors?

 

[Omnibot2000]

If the oil sample comes back with fuel in it, there is a fuel pressure sensor under the right valve cover that can fail.

Also, yes there was a problem with chaffing wires at the high pressure fuel pump. Not a bad job to get to the wiring, just gotta take a bunch of stuff off to inspect this wire chaffing.

If you do find the wire harness faulty. You scored an awesome deal on it. Thank that mechanic for a misdiagnosis if the harness is the issue.